1st Design Calipers...What are my options?

[Mike E.]

I’m getting to the point on my chassis where I have to decide what I’m going to do about my 1^st design virgin calipers on my ‘65. About 35 years ago I put new seals in them and at that time noticed the bores were starting to pit. I could only imagine how bad they are now. They did worked fine for about 7 years when I stopped driving the car in 1986 however bleeding was becoming a regular thing every spring, then monthly finally weekly. It was one of factor that kept me from driving the car much and eventually all together. In the 80's SS sleaves were a new thing and in 1980 dollars somewhat expensive.

Anyway fast forward to 2013, I’ve read about the “O-Ring” seals that now seem to be all the rage and they do indeed sound like a great option. Whatever I do I would think I would like to send my OE calipers out to have the work performed, as I’m trying to keep as much of the original car as possible. I guess what I’m asking is what the title of the tread state. What are my options? I know I want a reliably brake system where I can park the car at the end of the season and have good chance at coming back in the spring and having a brake pedal that doesn’t go to floor. It seems like the pistons insulators are visible so are there any options to keep the looks of the 1st design?


Thanks!
Mike

[Edward J.]

Re: 1st Design Calipers...What are my options?

Mike, you'll get a lot of input on calipers rebuilding, most including myself staying with the original design is the way to go.engineering of the lip seals have a lot to do with brake pedal feel and stopping power. I read a article a while back from Zora on this.

Make sure that the rotors are true as the corvettes brake systems don't like run out, As it causes air to be induced into the system from the rapid piston movement.

[Mike E.]

Re: 1st Design Calipers...What are my options?

Mike, you'll get a lot of input on calipers rebuilding, most including myself staying with the original design is the way to go.engineering of the lip seals have a lot to do with brake pedal feel and stopping power. I read a article a while back from Zora on this.

Make sure that the rotors are true as the corvettes brake systems don't like run out, As it causes air to be induced into the system from the rapid piston movement.

Good point about the lip seal and pedal feel, I hadn't thought about that. Many years ago I worked as a technician in the brake lab at Bosch so reminding these things can effect pedal feel is important. I already have a dial indicator to measure runout. What the general feeling about using a shim between hub and rotor to correct any runout?

Mike

[Edward J.]

Re: 1st Design Calipers...What are my options?

[QUOTE=Mike Eby (55078);642843]Yes, Good point about the lip seal and pedal feel, I hadn't thought about that. Many years ago I worked as a technician in the brake lab at Bosch so reminding me these things can effect pedal feel is important.I already have a dial indicator to measure runout. What the general feeling about using shims between hub and rotor to correct any runout?

Mike, the shim route is a option, but would tell you to clean the hub surfaces and use a quality set of brake rotors. I have done this many years with out problems. If you car only gets a thousand or two of driving each year you will get many good years from the rotors and calipers.

[Dick W.]

Re: 1st Design Calipers...What are my options?

^st

Mike, send your calipers to CSSB in Miami, telling them that you what you want. I am sure John and Luke can take care of needs. Give them a call at

Tech Line:

(305) 256-8077

[Mike E.]

Re: 1st Design Calipers...What are my options?

Mike, the shim route is a option, but would tell you to clean the hub surfaces and use a quality set of brake rotors. I have done this many years with out problems. If you car only gets a thousand or two of driving each year you will get many good years from the rotors and calipers.

Thanks Ed,

I've already drilled out rivets and removed the hub from the rotor for the fronts. The mating surface seems to be good shape. I'll probably just touch it with some light steel wool. The back side of the hub is has a lot of scale and rust I'll hit it with the media blaster blocking off the spindle hole. I have new Timken bearings and seals ordered which will be installed at the same time, any recommendation on what kind of grease to pack the bearings with?

Mike, send your calipers to CSSB in Miami, telling them that you what you want. I am sure John and Luke can take care of needs. Give them a call at

Tech Line:

(305) 256-8077

Thanks Dick,
Looking at CSSB website they seem to have all the answers. They will be certainly someone I call. A few months ago I read the Restorer article about O-rings seals but I would like see if any other owners have gone that way and what think of them.

I still haven't decided what to do as far as hydraulics, mine is a non-power single hydraulic circuit car which concerns me. I was a passenger in a car once that was involved in a minor accident in a parking lot where a brake line broke causing total system failure. It could have been much worse but those types of things stick with you in your old age.


Mike

[Ronald L.]

Re: 1st Design Calipers...What are my options?

I think you will find that cssb will bore out your first design and you can never go back. Last year when I called them, that was what they were going to do though you had to double ask the question, machining equipment in most the ss sleevers since the mid to late 70's was set up to blow out the 1st design piston guides.

If you want to maintain strict original appearance, configuration, etc. there is only one place in the US that does that and you usually have to go through a parts dealer. I've done a few sets this way.

[Dave S.]

Re: 1st Design Calipers...What are my options?

Thanks Ed,

I've already drilled out rivets and removed the hub from the rotor for the fronts. The mating surface seems to be good shape. I'll probably just touch it with some light steel wool. The back side of the hub is has a lot of scale and rust I'll hit it with the media blaster blocking off the spindle hole. I have new Timken bearings and seals ordered which will be installed at the same time, any recommendation on what kind of grease to pack the bearings with?




Thanks Dick,
Looking at CSSB website they seem to have all the answers. They will be certainly someone I call. A few months ago I read the Restorer article about O-rings seals but I would like see if any other owners have gone that way and what think of them.

I still haven't decided what to do as far as hydraulics, mine is a non-power single hydraulic circuit car which concerns me. I was a passenger in a car once that was involved in a minor accident in a parking lot where a brake line broke causing total system failure. It could have been much worse but those types of things stick with you in your old age.


Mike

Mike,
I have an almost never driven 71 coupe. I've been the owner for 7 years so I was not sure of the history. The LF caliper began to leak badly so I decided to remove the calipers and look around. I discovered that the calipers were a mixed bag w/ 2 being the early style and 2 being the late style and DOT 5 fliuid had been installed. They had been previously SS sleeved and had the original style lip seals but for some reason there was dirt present and it was especially present in the LF caliper that was leaking. I went to the CSSB website and decided to install their O Rings and DOT 5 fluid which I did myself. They installed easily and are now on the car. Test drive was great. Now it can sit some more. For $160 or so it seemed like a good solution.

[Dick W.]

Re: 1st Design Calipers...What are my options?

Thanks Ed,

I've already drilled out rivets and removed the hub from the rotor for the fronts. The mating surface seems to be good shape. I'll probably just touch it with some light steel wool. The back side of the hub is has a lot of scale and rust I'll hit it with the media blaster blocking off the spindle hole. I have new Timken bearings and seals ordered which will be installed at the same time, any recommendation on what kind of grease to pack the bearings with?




Thanks Dick,
Looking at CSSB website they seem to have all the answers. They will be certainly someone I call. A few months ago I read the Restorer article about O-rings seals but I would like see if any other owners have gone that way and what think of them.

I still haven't decided what to do as far as hydraulics, mine is a non-power single hydraulic circuit car which concerns me. I was a passenger in a car once that was involved in a minor accident in a parking lot where a brake line broke causing total system failure. It could have been much worse but those types of things stick with you in your old age.


Mike

I have always found John and Luke to be very straight up guys, have dealt with them on and off for over 25 years.

[Joe L.]

Re: 1st Design Calipers...What are my options?

I’m getting to the point on my chassis where I have to decide what I’m going to do about my 1^st design virgin calipers on my ‘65. About 35 years ago I put new seals in them and at that time noticed the bores were starting to pit. I could only imagine how bad they are now. They did worked fine for about 7 years when I stopped driving the car in 1986 however bleeding was becoming a regular thing every spring, then monthly finally weekly. It was one of factor that kept me from driving the car much and eventually all together. In the 80's SS sleaves were a new thing and in 1980 dollars somewhat expensive.

Anyway fast forward to 2013, I’ve read about the “O-Ring” seals that now seem to be all the rage and they do indeed sound like a great option. Whatever I do I would think I would like to send my OE calipers out to have the work performed, as I’m trying to keep as much of the original car as possible. I guess what I’m asking is what the title of the tread state. What are my options? I know I want a reliably brake system where I can park the car at the end of the season and have good chance at coming back in the spring and having a brake pedal that doesn’t go to floor. It seems like the pistons insulators are visible so are there any options to keep the looks of the 1st design?


Thanks!
Mike

Mike-----


I recommend staying with the original calipers and maintaining them as 1st design. This requires special machining in order to maintain the piston guides in the caliper bores. Most rebuilders will machine out the piston guides and, thus, convert the calipers to second design. There are several reasons for this. First, it's much easier to machine the caliper bores for sleeve installation if the pistons guides are first removed. Second, installing second design pistons is much less expensive than installing new first design pistons (pistons virtually always need to be replaced). Third, the majority of customers don't know and don't care if first design is maintained. I'll bet the vast majority of first design calipers have already been converted to second design as this is routinely done by caliper rebuilders when calipers are taken in as cores on an exchange basis.

I do not know if CSSB has the in-house capability to install sleeves without first removing the piston guides. However, if they do not, others do. I believe that Lonestar, Stainless Steel Brakes Corporation, and Vette Brakes can do it. It will be more expensive to do a first design rebuild using new, insulated pistons than doing a conversion to second design. This is because the machining is more difficult and the pistons are more expensive. Nevertheless, that's what I recommend you do.

Also, I recommend staying with the stock lip (chevron) seal configuration. For one thing, if you wish to go to o-ring you will have to convert the calipers to second design since o-ring pistons for first design are not available. In addition, the o-ring pistons are not of insulated design.

[George J.]

Re: 1st Design Calipers...What are my options?

I rebuilt my front two '65 calipers (they had been converted to 2nd design, aleady) last year and used the o-rings, leaving the rears as they were with the lip seals. I feel that there is more effort needed for the front calipers resulting in earlier lock up of the rear brakes compared to the fronts, than before. My car is a manual brake car, and if rebuilding again, which I plan to do, I'd go back to the lip seals. My guess is they won't last as long as the o-rings, but I'd rather have the decreased pedal effort. If they were power brakes, I would probably go with the o-rings for longevity's sake.

George