Possible C3 Carpet Improvements - NEED HELP

[Don L.]

Hello all. I was lucky enough to attend Carlisle this year and even luckier to get 40 minutes or so, together with Alan Struck, speaking directly with Al Knoch regarding details of his C3 carpets. Nice guy: Al spent a lot of time with us during a very busy day. Alan and I spoke to Al about how the "buzz" has his carpet material ID'd as very close, however, his vinyl pads are way off the mark. Al says that if he can get a sample of an original set of pads, he'll re-tool his stuff to best-replicate original appearance. Al clearly explained his manufacturing process to us and it is understandable how he has what he does, and it's also understandable that with a proper model, he can revise for improvement.

Does anyone have samples of known original dimmer pads and heel pads for these cars? If we can get one of each type/generation, I think we might be able to improve the likeness of replacements. Looking for loaner samples...

[Edward J.]

Re: Possible C3 Carpet Improvements - NEED HELP

Don, Do you know if and what happens to the carpets, I have a friend that still has the original 68 carpets stored away, and am sure that he may not want to destroy them. Or maybe Al would be willing to just use the pieces of originals and when done re-install them onto a new set of carpets.

[Don L.]

Re: Possible C3 Carpet Improvements - NEED HELP

Ed, my memory of last week's discussion had the part(s) being "lent" to A. Knoch for use in taking and impression/modeling a new part for tool construction. Al's comments were that he'd have to "smooth out" the stitch holes in the pad models, so as to avoid them being visible in the re-tooled part. Perhaps Alan S. and/or Stan F, who were both part of the discussion on Friday, might recall more/differently. Hopefully, one of them will ring in here.

BTW, it was great to see you last week. Putting faces to cyber-names is always good. I appreciate you looking me up while you were there.

[Alan S.]

Re: Possible C3 Carpet Improvements - NEED HELP

Hi Don,
My recollection is the same as yours.
Al Knock would use the original heel pad and dimmer pad to make a new 'mold'. He would use a different process to make them than he does now. The current process limits the thickness of the part and thus limits the definition possible. The needle holes would need to be dealt with, but my understanding was that the original 2 pads could be returned to who ever offered them for Al's use.
I do think we need to be careful to cover the variations in the heel pad over the 70-72 model years so that the right pads (and their identity) are sent to Al.
Regards,
Alan

[Dave S.]

Re: Possible C3 Carpet Improvements - NEED HELP

Hi Don,My recollection is the same as yours.Al Knock would use the original heel pad and dimmer pad to make a new 'mold'. He would use a different process to make them than he does now. The current process limits the thickness of the part and thus limits the definition possible. The needle holes would need to be dealt with, but my understanding was that the original 2 pads could be returned to who ever offered them for Al's use.I do think we need to be careful to cover the variations in the heel pad over the 70-72 model years so that the right pads (and their identity) are sent to Al.Regards,Alan

Not only the heel pards are way off but the carpet backing is as well. Al Knock could easily find original carpets with original heel pads and backing if he wanted to take the time to do so. Good reproduction items take time and effort to replicate. I hope he gets committed to producing a much more accurate reproduction.

[Don L.]

Re: Possible C3 Carpet Improvements - NEED HELP

Not only the heel pards are way off but the carpet backing is as well. Al Knock could easily find original carpets with original heel pads and backing if he wanted to take the time to do so. Good reproduction items take time and effort to replicate. I hope he gets committed to producing a much more accurate reproduction.

What's your point? I don't understand your post with regard to this experience/thread.

Have you spoken with A. Knoch or any of the other carpet manufacturers about improving the likeness of reproduction to original? If so, please share. Thanks.

[Dave S.]

Re: Possible C3 Carpet Improvements - NEED HELP

What's your point? I don't understand your post with regard to this experience/thread.

Have you spoken with A. Knoch or any of the other carpet manufacturers about improving the likeness of reproduction to original? If so, please share. Thanks.

My point seemed obvious to me but I'll try again. Al Knock in my opinion has not produced a quality reproduction carpet with respect to heel and dimmer pads as well as the carpet backing and ability to fit properly.

I believe there are original examples out there and they could improve their product if they wanted to.

Are you suggesting that I contact Al Knock to advise them on how to improve their product.????

[Michael F.]

Re: Possible C3 Carpet Improvements - NEED HELP

have to agree with dave, I will also say al should have done the homework from the git go, it should not be up to customer to do leg work to get accurate, quality product, his products over the years have in my opinion become subpar.... I have his leather seat covers and door panels in my car, covers nice, panels bought at a later date are not as good as ones I bought years earlier for another mid year. I saw decline when he moved to El Paso area....my opinion only, others may vary.

[Don L.]

Re: Possible C3 Carpet Improvements - NEED HELP

Sorry Dave. I was afraid that this was your point.

Please re-read the initial post in this thread. There's not a current need that I know of for you to contact A. Knoch (not Knock). Several of us, including the '70-'72 Team Leader met with him last week, covering the issue of poor reproduction likeness issues. We all thought it was a productive discussion. I left the exchange with excitement for improvement potential.

It seems to me that too many of us do more complaining to one another about vendor's poor likeness/quality instead of working with them, and at least attempting to do something about it. The benefit of such work is ours. Remember, NCRS is far from these guys' only customer. We're much pickier. We can help.

Mr. Knoch said last Friday that he would re-tool to produce better pads if he could get a sample to use as a model. We showed him a good, clear photo of a known original pad. He said he was unaware of the difference and I'm taking him at his word, having no personal reason/experience to doubt. This thread is an attempt to hunt down some original pads so that we can get a better product from this vendor. It could all fall through, but if we don't try, for sure, no gains can be expected/realized.

BTW, there was talk last week about the gap in carpet material/backing too. Al brought it up. That one seems further from resolution due to traditional and high quality carpet manufacturers' exodus from N. America, but that story's too long to get into here.

Are there any heel/dimmer pads available to use as models?

[Roy V.]

Re: Possible C3 Carpet Improvements - NEED HELP

Don, I applaud your efforts to work with a vendor to get the best possible reproductions that are available for us.
Unfortuneately my mostly original 1972 was parked outside by the original owner (my neighbor) and the carpets did not survive.
Good luck with your search, and again Thank you for your efforts
Regards
Roy

[Mike Z.]

Re: Possible C3 Carpet Improvements - NEED HELP

Don- I am currently in the middle of a frame off on a 70 and do not intend to use the original carpet other than to make sure the seat cuts are the same as original. I could cut the heel and dimmer areas out and they could be used-I'm all for trying to improve the product. One question: did Al indicate how long his process would take-I would sure like to be the first customer with the new improved version of his carpets. If I can help, you will need to let me know how to proceed.
On another note: did your discussion get into the door panels, which I understand do not have original type backing? I have original door panels also that I am trying to find NOS unless a better repop becomes available.
Mike Zamora
1970 LS-5 Coupe

[Patrick H.]

Re: Possible C3 Carpet Improvements - NEED HELP

Don- I am currently in the middle of a frame off on a 70 and do not intend to use the original carpet other than to make sure the seat cuts are the same as original. I could cut the heel and dimmer areas out and they could be used-I'm all for trying to improve the product. One question: did Al indicate how long his process would take-I would sure like to be the first customer with the new improved version of his carpets. If I can help, you will need to let me know how to proceed.
On another note: did your discussion get into the door panels, which I understand do not have original type backing? I have original door panels also that I am trying to find NOS unless a better repop becomes available.
Mike Zamora
1970 LS-5 Coupe

Mike,

I believe that Al will make you a set with the original type of backing if you wish.

[Alan S.]

Re: Possible C3 Carpet Improvements - NEED HELP

Hi Mike & Patrick,
While talking to Al Knock last Thursday I asked for some more detail about the fiberboard backing for the door panels.
My take is that Knock has an old stock of the formed fiberboard backing. This sounds good until you realize he puts the same vinyl 'skin' on the fiberboard backed panels that he uses on his abs backed panels.
That 'skin' while o.k., is detectable from an original 'skin', especially in the center of the panel where the 'comfort weave' pattern is added as a detail. If you look carefully at an original you'll see that the patterned area was smooth vinyl until the comfort weave pattern was imprinted. On Al's, (and other?), reproductions, the entire 'skin' has the grained appearance, and the comfort weave pattern is imprinted over it. You can still see the grain, and the comfort weave pattern becomes muddled and indistinct. So while it has the backing a judge may be looking for, it still might receive a small deduction for the vinyl pattern being inconsistent with that of a typical production panel.
I had considered buying a driver's side fiber board backed panel a few years ago, but feel it will still be detectable as a reproduction.
So I'm still looking for a driver's side, std. interior, black, door panel.
Regards,
alan

[Don L.]

Re: Possible C3 Carpet Improvements - NEED HELP

Thanks for this, Mike. Sorry, but I did not think to ask how long A. Knoch would need the pads for modeling. If you are offering to lend yours (I hope you are) I will contact Al and ask him about timing and if you can be the pilot for '70 pads. BTW, are you sure your carpet has a dimmer pad? I thought (don't have the JG here @ work) that 1970 Corvettes did not have the pad there. I'll cover the issue of the IMCO logo too. We discussed it last week but your pad should show clearly what NCRS specimens require.

On the door panels, Alan covered your question very well I think. Indeed you can buy a fiber backed panel from A. Knoch. Al said he had a finite inventory of original panels, needing only to have the body cloth (in this case, vinyl) laminated onto them. As Alan states, the vinyl he has access to is "pre-grained", so the insert area has graining where the originals don't. The definition of the repro is shallow too vs original. I wonder if a tooling change can fix this? If so, maybe all that needs to be done is to find a non-grained mtl. Graining of a tool is VERY expensive, so I kinda doubt there's a business case to satisfy the small NCRS customer base.

[Mike Z.]

Re: Possible C3 Carpet Improvements - NEED HELP

Don-I was planning on donating to the cause, I would not use the carpet. I would like to keep the section under the seat to make the seat mounting holes, but could cut the front half off. You are correct, there is not a dimmer grommet-there is however a piece of vinyl 5.5" and 1.25" at one end and 1.5" at the top end; located near the top left corner about where a dimmer switch would be. This stripe of vinyl is sewn into the carpet. If you want to make contact with Al to confirm and let me know, I would be happy to ship to him, or call me with instructions.
Mike
505-717-1140