The "Judging" game.

[Mike F.]

Let me start by saying, I'm glad I joined NCRS and I've learned a ton of valuable information from this forum and the NCRS membership. Much appreciated!

But, some of the things that I've noticed is what some people will do to get a Top Flight or higher award. I see people swapping original parts off of their buddies cars only to return them after judging. I see people buying NOS items to get judged, only to sell them after judging.
I can understand not wanting to use a consumable NOS item after judging (but at least keep it with the car), but to use borrowed parts for obtaining an award or selling the NOS items afterward just doesn't seem right. ......"Here's my Top Flight" (but half of the original parts are gone).

As I said, I'm fairly new to NCRS and haven't had a chance to get my car judged yet. I'm hoping/guessing it could achieve a 2nd Flight in its current condition, and I try to accomplish any repairs/fixes to NCRS standards. When I do get it judged, everything on the car will stay on the car.

I guess I just don't get it? Just my opinion....I know, I know.

Regards,

[Mark D.]

Re: The "Judging" game.

To be so new, you surely have witnessed a lot of underhanded activities. You a private eye?

[Patrick H.]

Re: The "Judging" game.

Now you know why the awards all have the caveat on them that they were applicable only on the day of judging.

I distinctly recall an owner selling a rare 1969 alternator off his car on the judging field immediately after the team awarded him his Survivor Award.
And, like many of us, I've seen cars go through dealers or subsequent owners and get stripped of correctly coded parts before being resold.

[Michael W.]

Re: The "Judging" game.

I don't get it either Mike. If an owner has succeeded in fooling the judges with bogus or swapped parts or by cheating- who's he really fooling other than himself? On the other hand there's a fairly wide audience that have no idea of what a Flight Award really signifies, so maybe in some cases that's what the owner is pandering to.

[Mike F.]

Re: The "Judging" game.

I do not have any "official" private eye training, but at one NCRS function there was a list on the front seat of a C2, "Parts x, y, z on Bob's car for judging". Perhaps I misinterpreted it?

[Michael J.]

Re: The "Judging" game.

Well of course the whole judging rigamarole is an auto related paper chase type process. It is in all cars, I have done it at Mustang Club of America, Shelby American Auto Club, and Mopar Nationals judging over the years. They are all pretty much the same, except some have more classes and categories that cut down the swapping, etc. But since NCRS has one simple standard, and tons of excessive detail oriented manuals, stories and experiences, judges, and participants, this is just the way it is. I am very glad I am over and through the whole process. Then the silly restoration batteries, hogging out old batteries to put new ones in, cover in tar, bias ply tires that are probably unsafe at any speed, antique electronics components and radiators, etc. etc. can be removed and safe, reliable and modern tires, electronic components, etc. can be put on so you can drive the car anywhere, anytime, and enjoy it. I like that much better than the judging paper chase, but of course that is just my opinion....

[Peter M.]

Re: The "Judging" game.

I have heard several old-timer Master Judges tell folks that this does. in fact. go on. They certainly did not condone it, but did admit that itdoes go on sometimes.

I'm with Mike Furline and Mike Ward; I don't get it either. While I do remove some of my OEM items after judging (i.e.: original wheels, tires, floor mats, airfilter, OEM spare & jack, glove box paperwork, etc.), however,I still have the original items. I do drive and enjoy the car and I store the OEM items for judging events and use my driver quality wheels, tires & parts for every day use.

FWIW

[Domenic T.]

Re: The "Judging" game.

Sounds like the beggining of a new business!!


TOP FLIGHT RENTALS

what do ya think.

DOM

[G A.]

Re: The "Judging" game.

I think the intent is/was that the parts on the car stay with the car, not that you and me swap stuff to get kudos. After all, is this a CAR or just a collection of parts?????

The root of this issue isn't cured easily or at all because the problem is the individual. In any group or organization there are those that will subvert by deceit.

As for the judging, your point is but one of the reasons I choose to ignore that part of this organization.

Instead I focus on the phenomenal amount of information, guidance and advice that is available here to achieve my goal which is to be able to drive an "almost like new", old-school warhorse.

I collect to the best of my abilities original GM parts to install and use, not so I can gather pieces of paper that tell me I did good. God and my conscience are sufficient for that.

Whether it's an NOS or reconditioned part I USE IT. When I open my hood or crawl under the little devil, I want to see what one should expect to see, what GM put there when it was a kid. Are there cars out there with 'more correct' or 'better condition' stuff? Sure. Your only on top for a moment. All glory is fleeting.

My advice is to set yourself a goal and live with the consequences. Show and get judged and know there is probably someone present trying to cheat their way into some dumb award.

Or, better yet, drive that sucker. Let the public see what the glory days of Chevrolet look and sounded like.

Dan

[Edward B.]

Re: The "Judging" game.

Here is something I posted on 06/09/12 to a thread on the repainting of Bilstein shock absorbers to look like Delco. Several people answered, but none successfully answered the question as to what level of deception is allowed on the judging field. Perhaps my post is more on topic here, hence its representation in the hope of a cogent explanation.

Tarting up Bilsteins to look like Delcos -is that really any different that creating a new trim tag to make a car appear the way you want it to? For the shocks, if detected, the penalty is the loss of a few points; for the trim tag the penalty is much more severe. Who decides what level of fakery is acceptable? Bogus is bogus if you ask me, but apparently some level of deceit is allowed on the judging field. Can someone explain the difference?

[Patrick H.]

Re: The "Judging" game.

Sounds like the beggining of a new business!!


TOP FLIGHT RENTALS

what do ya think.

DOM

That was proposed several years ago.... and was part of the reason the Discussion Board was shut down several years ago.

I don't think you want to go there.

[Michael W.]

Re: The "Judging" game.

Can someone explain the difference?

Sure- it's been explained here many times and in Roy's column in the Restorer. The trim tag by itself is no more than a stamped piece of metal. It's the information on the tag that makes it critical. Green cars become red or black, and blue cars with green interiors become black cars with black interiors. A car with Bilstein shocks is 'incorrectly' restored. A green car with black paint and a black paint trim tag is a counterfeit.

[Dick W.]

Re: The "Judging" game.

I suggest that ya'll read the Judging Reference Manual. Best of my feeble recollection, the car owner and the parts owner can be disqualified from judging.

I remember when this rule was put into effect. I saw a cigarette lighter element get judged seven times in different cars. This was at one meet.

[Domenic T.]

Re: The "Judging" game.

That was proposed several years ago.... and was part of the reason the Discussion Board was shut down several years ago.

I don't think you want to go there.

WOW Patrick,
Didn't know that when I made the joke.
So the joke was something that really happened?

DOM

[Clark K.]

Re: The "Judging" game.

Now you know why the awards all have the caveat on them that they were applicable only on the day of judging.

Then, we should be referring to a Corvette as having once earned that coveted blue rosette, rather than referring to it later as a NCRS Top Flight car?
-Clark