lacquer paint

[Bob H.]

What is the latest ruling on repainting with non lacquer? Lacquer is not allowed in my state. If NCRS does require lacquer, is the 100% deduction only for originality, and 100% ok for condition? Thank you.

[Dick W.]

Re: lacquer paint

Bob, first you need to get a judging reference manual from NCRS. It goes into great depth to explain that all the paint has to do is appear as original materials. Do a search of this site and you will find many threads dealing with the application and finishing of paint to make it appear as original.

[Bob H.]

Re: lacquer paint

I do have all the books. Please forgive me for being a little paranoid, so let me give you a little background:

Background:

• My car was first judged at the Chapter meet on October 13, 1990 in Anaheim. The final score was 96.2 and the paint deduct was zero and zero. The Chief Judge was Mike Vietro.
• It was next judged at the Regional meet on April 6, 1991 in San Marcos. The final score was 99.1 and the paint deduct was zero and two. The chief judge was Wayne Foss.
• It was next judged at the National meet on July 10, 1991 in Anaheim. The final score was 97.8 and the paint deduct was zero and three. The exterior judges were Joe Troutwine and Wayne Mathews. The mechanical judges were Carlos Vivas and John Paul Nelson.
• In 2001 it was judged at the October 13, 2001 meet in Sacramento. The final score was 94.7 and the paint deduction was zero and two. The exterior judges were Jeff Murphy and Art McNay.
• It was judged at the Regional in Laughlin, Nevada on March 21, 2002. The final score was 93.8 and the paint deduction was 45 and 40not characteristic for lacquer

Now, I am starting a different midyear for the 2013 Regional. Is there any objective rules I can count on? Clearly the subjective nature of personal opinions leaves something to be desired.

Thanks for any help, Bob.

[Terry M.]

Re: lacquer paint

I do have all the books. Please forgive me for being a little paranoid, so let me give you a little background:

Background:

• My car was first judged at the Chapter meet on October 13, 1990 in Anaheim. The final score was 96.2 and the paint deduct was zero and zero. The Chief Judge was Mike Vietro.
• It was next judged at the Regional meet on April 6, 1991 in San Marcos. The final score was 99.1 and the paint deduct was zero and two. The chief judge was Wayne Foss.
• It was next judged at the National meet on July 10, 1991 in Anaheim. The final score was 97.8 and the paint deduct was zero and three. The exterior judges were Joe Troutwine and Wayne Mathews. The mechanical judges were Carlos Vivas and John Paul Nelson.
• In 2001 it was judged at the October 13, 2001 meet in Sacramento. The final score was 94.7 and the paint deduction was zero and two. The exterior judges were Jeff Murphy and Art McNay.
• It was judged at the Regional in Laughlin, Nevada on March 21, 2002. The final score was 93.8 and the paint deduction was 45 and 40. The exterior judge was Carlos Vivas. The comment is “not characteristic for lacquer”.

Now, I am starting a different midyear for the 2013 Regional. Is there any objective rules I can count on? Clearly the subjective nature of personal opinions leaves something to be desired.

Thanks for any help, Bob.

Your judging results may not so much reflect "the subjective nature of personal opinions," but I would suggest they are more the result of changing standards over time. ALL of those judgings were a long time ago, and the witch hunt for lacquer was in full force back then. We (NCRS) have spent a lot of time and effort at educating exterior judges and the general membership on paint and how to judge it. There have even been pieces written by the National Judging Chairman in The Restorer in an effort to achieve the goal of educating the membership about the "new" paint standards. The big secret is they are not new -- some/many/most of us were simply heading off in an improper direction back at the change of the century. We (NCRS) had hopes we had reached most of the membership by now.

Try this thread for starters:

https://www.forums.ncrs.org/showthread.php?94010-Restoration

[Tom N.]

Re: lacquer paint

What has happened to lacquer paint will eventually be the fate for urethane paints,
the top body and paint shops here in AZ are now using the new water environment friendly
so-called hi-tech paint systems.

[Donald T.]

Re: lacquer paint

What is the latest ruling on repainting with non lacquer? Lacquer is not allowed in my state. If NCRS does require lacquer, is the 100% deduction only for originality, and 100% ok for condition? Thank you.

Why are you under the impression that lacquer is not allowed in your state? Your profile indicates California and there are suppliers in your state. Just place your order and should be on your doorstep in a couple of days.

http://www.tcpglobal.com/restorationshop/rspaclac.aspx

[Dick W.]

Re: lacquer paint

Why are you under the impression that lacquer is not allowed in your state? Your profile indicates California and there are suppliers in your state. Just place your order and should be on your doorstep in a couple of days.

TPC may ship it there, but I believe it is illegal to spray it in CA due to VOC standards.

[Larry M.]

Re: lacquer paint

Bob:

Tom Ames (and many others within NCRS) have repeatedly said that:

1. The lacquer of today is not the same as the OEM reflow lacquer used by the factory, so using currently available lacquer (if you can get it and use it in your area) is different than the original factory finish. It is also less durable.
2. Today's urethane based paints can be made to appear as factory lacquer if the proper procedures are followed by an experienced painter.
3. Mixing formulas are different now, and so are metallic flake size, so a person really must do "due diligance" in trying to get ANY current paint to appear as a 1960's factory finish.

MANY, MANY NCRS TOP FLIGHT cars today are finished in a paint that is not OEM lacquer. But it appears like it. The key is getting a good paint formula/color match and getting a painter that can and will paint like the NCRS standards require.

I would suggest placing a call or e-mail to Tom and getting his advice regarding shops and painters in your area that can provide the correct finish.......or get from him the things YOU can do to refinish it yourself if you are a painter. I believe there is an NCRS video on this subject for sale in the Driveline.

Tom's advice is also in many recent, previous posts on this subject.......just do a search to find them.

Larry

[Joe R.]

Re: lacquer paint

Larry,

Well said!

Joe

[Terry M.]

Re: lacquer paint

Bob:

Tom Ames (and many others within NCRS) have repeatedly said that:

1. The lacquer of today is not the same as the OEM reflow lacquer used by the factory, so using currently available lacquer (if you can get it and use it in your area) is different than the original factory finish. It is also less durable.
2. Today's urethane based paints can be made to appear as factory lacquer if the proper procedures are followed by an experienced painter.
3. Mixing formulas are different now, and so are metallic flake size, so a person really must do "due diligance" in trying to get ANY current paint to appear as a 1960's factory finish.

MANY, MANY NCRS TOP FLIGHT cars today are finished in a paint that is not OEM lacquer. But it appears like it. The key is getting a good paint formula/color match and getting a painter that can and will paint like the NCRS standards require.

I would suggest placing a call or e-mail to Tom and getting his advice regarding shops and painters in your area that can provide the correct finish.......or get from him the things YOU can do to refinish it yourself if you are a painter. I believe there is an NCRS video on this subject for sale in the Driveline.

Tom's advice is also in many recent, previous posts on this subject.......just do a search to find them.

Larry

Tom and others have also said that lacquer available in paint stores in the 1960s and early 1970s was not the same as that used by the factory either. So even if we could get on our way back machine we would not be able to get the original materials.

[Larry M.]

Re: lacquer paint

Tom and others have also said that lacquer available in paint stores in the 1960s and early 1970s was not the same as that used by the factory either. So even if we could get on our way back machine we would not be able to get the original materials.

Terry:

I agree. I was trying to provide a concise/brief answer.

I have been fortunate to attend and to hear Tom's presentations on paint since he developed them in the late 1980's/early 1990's. You can see I have picked up a few pointers.......

Larry

[Terry M.]

Re: lacquer paint

Terry:

I agree. I was trying to provide a concise/brief answer.

I have been fortunate to attend and to hear Tom's presentations on paint since he developed them in the late 1980's/early 1990's. You can see I have picked up a few pointers.......

Larry

Larry, I didn't post my additional comment to disagree with what you posted. What you posted is the gospel according to Tom, John & Steve. I merely wanted to point out that even "back when" duplicating the original factory finish was not easy -- also according to Tom, John & Steve. According to those three wise guys the difficulty in duplicating factory finishes is not just in the choice of materials.

All I know about paint is I can't and won"t do it. Oh yes, I know too that it takes a lot of skill and money. Even the crappy raw materials available today costs a small fortune, and then there is the skilled labor.