'66 frame stencil date vs. trim tag date

[Gary B.]

Re: '66 frame stencil date vs. trim tag date

... The stenciled dates were put on by AO Smith at the frame plant in Milwaukee, WI. It represents either when it was manufactured or shipped from their plant and is not related to when it started assembly in St. Louis.

John,

I agree with you 100%!

Gary

[Cecil L.]

Re: '66 frame stencil date vs. trim tag date

I think the problem is we're talking about two different things as if they are the same. The terminology "frame pull date", in my opinion is appropriate only for the hand written dates on very early 66 and before. The stencil date is the date of manufacture at Granite City as opposed to a "pull date" at St Louis. I know my own 66 which is in Gary's database had no hand written "pull date" but had the stencil date instead. Obviously a production process change and depending on the date of assembly, early 66 frames would have one or the other but not both.

[Michael H.]

Re: '66 frame stencil date vs. trim tag date

I think the problem is we're talking about two different things as if they are the same. The terminology "frame pull date", in my opinion is appropriate only for the hand written dates on very early 66 and before. The stencil date is the date of manufacture at Granite City as opposed to a "pull date" at St Louis. I know my own 66 which is in Gary's database had no hand written "pull date" but had the stencil date instead. Obviously a production process change and depending on the date of assembly, early 66 frames would have one or the other but not both.

Cecil,

Yes, that's exactly what I was trying to describe in my previous post. The system changed early in the 66 model year.

[Gary B.]

Re: '66 frame stencil date vs. trim tag date

I think the problem is we're talking about two different things as if they are the same. The terminology "frame pull date", in my opinion is appropriate only for the hand written dates on very early 66 and before. The stencil date is the date of manufacture at Granite City as opposed to a "pull date" at St Louis. I know my own 66 which is in Gary's database had no hand written "pull date" but had the stencil date instead. Obviously a production process change and depending on the date of assembly, early 66 frames would have one or the other but not both.

Cecil,

You're absolutely right. I've been communicating with John Hinckley offline and I think he wouldn't might me sharing his e-mail to me from yesterday, in which he says:

"The "stencil date" is a different animal than the "pull date"; the stencil was applied at the A.O. Smith frame plant in Granite City, Illinois before the frame was truck-shipped to St. Louis, and each stack of frames could sit outdoors on the frame pad at St. Louis for hours or days before being brought into the plant next to the Frame Line for use, depending on which stack the hi-lo driver picked. As with every other part in the plant, nobody paid any attention to dates."

So, one can imagine that there are several stacks of frames sitting outdoors and the less accessible stack winds up sitting there for days or maybe a week or more. Of course all those frames have a date in the stencil beginning in late 1965, so the clock is ticking on those frame stencil dates until they are matched up with a body, either from St. Louis or AO Smith. It's easy to imagine a frame date that precedes the trim tag date by days or a week or longer. Perfectly consistent with the data gathered to date on frame dates and trim tag dates. I believe we have to give up the dogma that every frame has a stencil date that precedes the trim tag date by 1 or 2 days. Reality is much more complex than that.

Gary

[Michael H.]

Re: '66 frame stencil date vs. trim tag date

Cecil,

You're absolutely right. I've been communicating with John Hinckley offline and I think he wouldn't might me sharing his e-mail to me from yesterday, in which he says:

"The "stencil date" is a different animal than the "pull date"; the stencil was applied at the A.O. Smith frame plant in Granite City, Illinois before the frame was truck-shipped to St. Louis, and each stack of frames could sit outdoors on the frame pad at St. Louis for hours or days before being brought into the plant next to the Frame Line for use, depending on which stack the hi-lo driver picked. As with every other part in the plant, nobody paid any attention to dates."

So, one can imagine that there are several stacks of frames sitting outdoors and the less accessible stack winds up sitting there for days or maybe a week or more. Of course all those frames have a date in the stencil beginning in late 1965, so the clock is ticking on those frame stencil dates until they are matched up with a body, either from St. Louis or AO Smith. It's easy to imagine a frame date that precedes the trim tag date by days or a week or longer. Perfectly consistent with the data gathered to date on frame dates and trim tag dates. I believe we have to give up the dogma that every frame has a stencil date that precedes the trim tag date by 1 or 2 days. Reality is much more complex than that.

Gary

I've explained how the frame dating works for both hand written and stencil right here at least once a year for the last 6 or 7 years but I don't think anyone is paying attention. I explained it again today but no response.

[Ronald M.]

Re: '66 frame stencil date vs. trim tag date

I've been following this thread with much interest, as I just received a Quanta Chassis Detail Kit for my 1966 Convertible. And of course, it now leads to a few questions-
Given the following data:
---------------------------------------------------------------
Body Source: St. Louis
Body Number: 1642
Body Build Date: 8 November, 1965
Final Assembly Date = Tuesday, November 09, 1965
---------------------------------------------------------------
Q1. Should my frame have a hand scrawled frame date (as Quanta believes) or have the frame date incorporated into the stencil ?
Q2. Given that my body started on a Monday, what would be the expected frame date?
Northwest Rockwall-20120120-00051.jpg
thanks in advance,

[Gary B.]

Re: '66 frame stencil date vs. trim tag date

I've been following this thread with much interest, as I just received a Quanta Chassis Detail Kit for my 1966 Convertible. And of course, it now leads to a few questions-
Given the following data:
---------------------------------------------------------------
Body Source: St. Louis
Body Number: 1642
Body Build Date: 8 November, 1965
Final Assembly Date = Tuesday, November 09, 1965
---------------------------------------------------------------
Q1. Should my frame have a hand scrawled frame date (as Quanta believes) or have the frame date incorporated into the stencil ?
Q2. Given that my body started on a Monday, what would be the expected frame date?
[ATTACH=CONFIG]36958[/ATTACH]
thanks in advance,

Ron,

Quanta has their own frame stencil database and they use that database to determine the format for a stencil for a specific customer, I presume based on the customer's VIN or Trim Tag date. The earliest stencil in my database is for Cecil Loter's car and his stencil has the date included directly in the stencil. The date in his stencil is Nov 10 of 1965. His Trim Tag date is 11/12/65. So his car is very close to yours. Now we know that hand-written "pull" dates were used at the start of the '66 model year, but we don't know exactly when that practice ended and when the date started appearing within the stencil. But if Quanta tells you that your car should have a hand-written date, then I would assume they are giving you the best information available. This would suggest that the transition from hand-written dates to stencil dates occurred in the Nov 8 to Nov 10, 1965 timeframe.

Regarding your question about frame date for your Monday body build date car, the only documented original hand-wrriten "pull" date I've ever seen is in Noland Adams' book, so I can't help you there. If Quanta told you a date to scrawl on the frame, I would go with their recommendation.

Gary

[Gary B.]

Re: '66 frame stencil date vs. trim tag date

I've explained how the frame dating works for both hand written and stencil right here at least once a year for the last 6 or 7 years but I don't think anyone is paying attention. I explained it again today but no response.

Now Michael, some of us are listening. Just consider us like children or aging parents.

Gary

[Cecil L.]

Re: '66 frame stencil date vs. trim tag date

Cecil,

Yes, that's exactly what I was trying to describe in my previous post. The system changed early in the 66 model year.

Michael,
I agree, I was only trying to point the apparent confusion for some between the two different dating conventions as there are still some who seem to think that all 66's should have a hand written date.

[Gary B.]

Re: '66 frame stencil date vs. trim tag date

... as there are still some who seem to think that all 66's should have a hand written date.

Cecli,

And I believe that notion is either stated or implied in the latest edition of the '66 TIM&JG.

Gary

[Michael H.]

Re: '66 frame stencil date vs. trim tag date

Here's an assembly line picture from 20 Sept 65 that shows the hand written date on the frame rail of new 66's.

[Gary B.]

Re: '66 frame stencil date vs. trim tag date

Micheal,

When I look at that photo with a magnifier glass, I think I can convince myself that the date format, 20-9-65, used in the foreground frames being worked on is different from the date format on the frames stacked in the very back of the room, which appears to be 9/21/65.

Gary

[Michael H.]

Re: '66 frame stencil date vs. trim tag date

Micheal,

When I look at that photo with a magnifier glass, I think I can convince myself that the date format, 20-9-65, used in the foreground frames being worked on is different from the date format on the frames stacked in the very back of the room, which appears to be 9/21/65.

Gary

Gary,

That's very possible. I tried to see the dates but I can't make it out. I have a larger better res of that pic and I'll look.

It's possible that this picture was taken at the start of production for that day and the next stacks of frames came in early on the 21st. The line may have been shut down the night before with several frames dated the 20th still on line.

I remember the guy that used to write dates/codes on the frames in that stack. I have a pic somewhere of him writing on frames in the stack behind the start of the frame line. He has a stack of manifests in his hand and is transferring info onto the frames.