NOS '202' Ignition Coil - eBay seller switched coils - Is this real or Reproduction?

[Scott S.]

Re: NOS '202' Ignition Coil - eBay seller switched coils - Is this real or Reproducti

The Corvette Restorer had an article on the nuisances you are talking about. I do not have my disc here right now to tell you which issue it was in.

Thanks Dick, I found a couple that should be helpful, hopefully the one you mentioned is one of these:

REPLACEMENT IGNITION COILS: A POTENTIAL FOR DISASTER! - Armand J. Filer

Identifying 1953-1974 Factory Installed Delco-Remy Ignition Coils - Kenneth Kayser

Delco-Remy Distributors, Coils & Related Parts, 1962-1974 - Roger Gibson

I will examine each and report findings.

[Scott S.]

Re: NOS '202' Ignition Coil - eBay seller switched coils - Is this real or Reproducti

The dates on the boxes, if they are there, will help tell that story. I personally have not studied 202 box dates...

I know with a small mirror we can see the 202 embossing and then the top details are important. One reason I avoided the re-pop a while back, it was not the same as known originals. Nor would I trust the used parts out there, I can see why you want one in the string box.

Hi Ron,

No dates on this box, unfortunately.

My intention is to rebuild the L79 engine with OEM or OEM equivalent parts, and learn how it was supposed to run as originally designed. The new GM Licensed reproduction '202' may be excellent, but I don't know who makes it, I don't know whether the same internal materials and design (and specs) are utilized, etc. With regard to used coils, I can't know the history of a used ignition coil, so if all other related parts of the system are correctly restored or replaced with correct OEM (or equivalent) parts, a reproduction or a used ignition coil would be the "unknown" link in the chain.

I would be happy to try either used or repro at some point and experiment, but first I want to get a "baseline" by having everything as close to the way it was in 1967 as is reasonably possible.

Plus, I just like original and NOS parts. Must have something to do with hanging around this place

[Scott S.]

Re: NOS '202' Ignition Coil - eBay seller switched coils - Is this real or Reproducti

Restorer Article - REPLACEMENT IGNITION COILS: A POTENTIAL FOR DISASTER! - Armand J. Filer (Volume 20, #1, Summer 1993)

Excellent detail on the 1963 "1111091" and "1111087" coils, but unfortunately the "202" coil that Armand had on hand for examination at the time was the later service replacement with flat bottom and the entire "1115202" stenciled on the side in white. Of note in relation to this Thread:

"At the top of the coil there were four small holes, one at each corner of a raised rectangular area with curved ends. One of these holes on each side of the high voltage tower was used to keep a small, square, stamped-steel, double-lipped and single-tanged washer from turning, by trapping the tanged 'foot' ". (referencing the '091' and '087' coils)

Then referencing the later service replacement white stenciled version '202' coil specifically, the author notes: "But the feature change I really want to draw the reader's attention to because of its technical importance is the point where the brass studs emerge from the housing on opposite sides of the high voltage "tower" (see Figure #4). The '202' coil no longer had the four tiny washer anchor holes and the square washers furnished with the coil no longer had tanged 'feet'." He goes on to explain why this design change leads to a failure of the ignition coil over time.

For purposes of identification, I note that the top of the ignition coil that came off my car does NOT have the "four tiny washer anchor holes", BUT the NOS example I recently obtained DOES have these four holes. This subject is addressed in the next article.

To be determined: Does a factory original '202' have these four "washer anchor holes" (mine does not), and do the older NOS examples have these holes (the one I just received does, but NO 'tang' on the bottom of the washer to 'anchor' in any of the 'holes').

Pictures:
1) old '202' coil (top)
2) recent purchase advertised as NOS '202' coil (top)
3) bottoms of both '202' coils

[Scott S.]

Re: NOS '202' Ignition Coil - eBay seller switched coils - Is this real or Reproducti

The problem with searching the back issue Restorer articles is that you can't read just one, and four hours later you've read 20 different articles that led to 20 other articles and before you know it the whole evening is gone...

Restorer Article - Identifying 1953-1974 Factory Installed Delco-Remy Ignition Coils - Kenneth Kayser (Volume 21, #3, Winter 1995)

Another great article, with engineering drawings of various changes. Intro:The intent of this article is to identify the running changes made by Delco-Remy to ignition coils between 1953 and 1974, so owners of Corvettes in this time frame may properly identify original factory installed ignition coils from later, service replacement ignition coils sold over dealer parts counters. Also, this information should help to identify fraudulent ignition coils which have been cleverly sleeved, renumbered with an embossed tag, or otherwise disguised.

Summary of information relating to this Thread:

Of specific note regarding the four washer anchor holes that are notSome ignition coils have been reported without the four molded-in-place holes for the lock clip prongs. The examination of Delco-Remy blue prints do not verify such a change at this time. It is possible that routine periodic reworking of the molds may have omitted these holes as a cost savings, without changing the # 1969306 drawing. However, it would have been after the last documented drawing change recorded January 30, 1974, and any ignition coils without the four holes should thus be considered non-factory installed

[Scott S.]

Re: NOS '202' Ignition Coil - eBay seller switched coils - Is this real or Reproducti

Conclusions so far: The absence of the four small holes to anchor the (earlier design) ‘lock clip’ prongs indicates that what I thought was an “original” 202 coil was not original after all, but a coil that was purchased after 01/30/74 and (probably) before November 1976 when my father bought this car. The presence of these holes on the ‘202’ coil that I just received is consistent with a 1974 or earlier service replacement '202' ignition coil as far as the engineering drawings are concerned.

It seems that my recent acquisition is therefore not a current reproduction coil, but the possibility of a re-sleeve or repaint of an older coil remains. How would one determine such a thing?

[Ken A.]

Re: NOS '202' Ignition Coil - eBay seller switched coils - Is this real or Reproducti

Conclusions so far: The absence of the four small holes to anchor the (earlier design) ‘lock clip’ prongs indicates that what I thought was an “original” 202 coil was not original after all, but a coil that was purchased after 01/30/74 and (probably) before November 1976 when my father bought this car. The presence of these holes on the ‘202’ coil that I just received is consistent with a 1974 or earlier service replacement '202' ignition coil as far as the engineering drawings are concerned.

It seems that my recent acquisition is therefore not a current reproduction coil, but the possibility of a re-sleeve or repaint of an older coil remains. How would one determine such a thing?

Shake the coil, if a sloshing sound is heard then you've been head butted by a goat. The factory & the new reproductions use a vacuum fill process for better insulation, the goat's hooves are too big to operate the tool.

[Timothy B.]

Re: NOS '202' Ignition Coil - eBay seller switched coils - Is this real or Reproducti

Scott,

I want to correct my previous thread, the old 202 coil which I am almost positive is the original coil on my 67 say's 12-V. This coil does not have the small four anchor holes drilled, there are locating dimples/markes left from the mold but no holes.

The service replacement 202 that I pulled the string on the box say's 12V. I don't think the small holes are drilled but the car is not here to look at this moment.

[Wayne M.]

Re: NOS '202' Ignition Coil - eBay seller switched coils - Is this real or Reproducti

....the old 202 coil which I am almost positive is the original coil on my 67 say's 12-V. This coil does not have the small four anchor holes drilled, there are locating dimples/markes left from the mold but no holes. .....

Tim --- I feel the same way about this junkyard 202, pulled off a '67 Corvair. Features are as you describe on yours. Of course I have no absolute proof .

[Ronald L.]

Re: NOS '202' Ignition Coil - eBay seller switched coils - Is this real or Reproducti

Ken,

Shake the coil, if a sloshing sound is heard then you've been head butted by a goat. The factory & the new reproductions use a vacuum fill process for better insulation, the goat's hooves are too big to operate the tool.

Baaaaaaad Billy

[Scott S.]

Re: NOS '202' Ignition Coil - eBay seller switched coils - Is this real or Reproducti

Scott,

I want to correct my previous thread, the old 202 coil which I am almost positive is the original coil on my 67 say's 12-V. This coil does not have the small four anchor holes drilled, there are locating dimples/markes left from the mold but no holes.

The service replacement 202 that I pulled the string on the box say's 12V. I don't think the small holes are drilled but the car is not here to look at this moment.

The plot sickens . I checked my old coil and it also has the locating dimples/marks where the holes would have been formed or drilled.

[Scott S.]

Re: NOS '202' Ignition Coil - eBay seller switched coils - Is this real or Reproducti

Tim --- I feel the same way about this junkyard 202, pulled off a '67 Corvair. Features are as you describe on yours. Of course I have no absolute proof .

Wayne,

My old coil appears very close to the same as yours in general appearance, except:

1. Mine has a "14" where yours has a "5" (mold number?)

2. Mine has the "Delco-Remy" logo closer to the outer edge of the Bakelite cap.

3. On mine, the bottom of the "Y" at the end of "Remy" does not extend underneath the "m" in "Remy" as yours does. It couldn't, there's not enough room between the bottom of the "Y" and the edge of the Bakelite cap. Otherwise the 'font' appears the same, and the lettering is 'deep', unlike the the very shallow 'Delco-Remy' raised lettering on the new coil.

I am beginning to wonder if maybe the coils with the undrilled/unformed holes in the 1967 era were as common as those with the holes. It is possible that the author of the article I referenced above simply did not have access to a large enough supply of original coils. The drawings don't show the Bakelite caps without holes, but I don't know how to confirm whether one of GM's suppliers might have made them with holes while another supplier might have made them without. The holes were no longer functional since the revision of the washer, removing the "tang" or "prong" that would anchor the washer in one of the adjacent holes.

Pictures 1 & 2: old coil, "Delco-Remy" close up
Pictures 3 & 4: new coil, "Delco-Remy" close up

[Scott S.]

Re: NOS '202' Ignition Coil - eBay seller switched coils - Is this real or Reproducti

Shake the coil, if a sloshing sound is heard then you've been head butted by a goat. The factory & the new reproductions use a vacuum fill process for better insulation, the goat's hooves are too big to operate the tool.

Ken, thanks for the follow up. I have read about Goat Hill in the archives, but I never seen their finished product (as far as I know...). Two things to add to the description at this point:

1) When comparing my old coil with the new standing up side by side on a table, the top edge of the Bakelight cap on the new one is slightly taller, by about 1/8"... unless you spin the new one around to the other side, in which case they're both the same height. The Bakelite lid on the new coil does not appear to be shoved all the way down so that the cap would sit flush on the 'canister' top on one side. There is a visible "ridge" or "lip" that looks like it might be the top of the 'canister' and the Bakelite cap just didn't "seat" properly onto it.

2) I shook the old coil next to my ear, and it's like shaking a solid brick. No sound at all. I shook the new coil the same way, and it must be pretty full, but there's enough unfilled volume inside to be able to hear liquid moving around.

I took more pictures, and noticed a few more things. If this isn't a re-manufactured unit, then somebody seems to have gone out of their way to make it look like one, under close examination. Could just be an attempt at touch-up work on a factory reject, or could be clues that the unit has been apart and not re-assembled properly.

Pictures are annotated.

More pictures next post.

[Scott S.]

Re: NOS '202' Ignition Coil - eBay seller switched coils - Is this real or Reproducti

A few more pictures with notes. Starting to feel like Officer Obie, "with the twenty seven eight-by-ten color glossy pictures with circles and arrows and a paragraph on the back of each one..." (Alice's Restaurant )

[Wayne M.]

Re: NOS '202' Ignition Coil - eBay seller switched coils - Is this real or Reproducti

Scott -- your point #2 in post #27 makes me think your "new" coil has been re-skinned. I've examined more than a half-dozen of my originals and see no seam at the top; a new can might also explain the difference in height.

Here's 2 Photobucket pics of a 1115210 coil that I have (L78 and early '66 L36 w/K66 -- a production timeframe of about 7 months). This coil was never available in service, to my knowledge -- doesn't appear in any P & A catalogs or parts histories. I put a mirror at the back of first pic so you can see the original ragged paper-backed foil decal. 2nd pic is of the top of the '210' Note the script, especially the 'Y' in Remy. This one has no holes for retention of a clip that was eliminated 3 years prior. IMHO, NO OEM coils had the holes after (say) 1962 or 3. I believe Ken Kayser is reading too much into a single engineering drawing showing the holes in the side view of Dwg #4, and top view of Fig. 6 (the latter could just be the markings where the holes were on previous designs without being erased).

[Scott S.]

Re: NOS '202' Ignition Coil - eBay seller switched coils - Is this real or Reproducti

Tim --- I feel the same way about this junkyard 202, pulled off a '67 Corvair. Features are as you describe on yours. Of course I have no absolute proof .

Wayne, I see two more differences in the "Delco-Remy" logo between your old example and my old example. On yours, the "R" in "Remy" has "feet" at the bottom of the "R", mine does not.

Also, on yours the top of the "l" in "Delco" points RIGHT, while the top of the "l" in "Delco" on mine points LEFT.