Fit and finish guide?

[Kenn S.]

From my membership number you can tell I'm new to NCRS, although not new to Corvettes. Even so, I have a 1970 LS-5 with air I'd like to restore to proper condition, and a million questions to go along with it, I'm sure.

But I'll start with this question. I'm concerned about a full NCRS-quality restoration, not because I can't find a part (I have an original Chevy parts book, in fact), but because I'm concerned about making mistakes on fit and finish. How can I avoid mistakes and get it right the first time?

I'm still very much researching paints and finishes, and the details are sketchy at the moment. I'm sure given more research and time things will clear up a bit. For example, I have the CD's for the C3 years and read everything there about paints and painting. But they don't address some specifics.

Apparently the original laquer paint (Laguna Gray) isn't available, and there is some question in the Restorer about later paints (color matching and type). If I go with a urethane paint, the clear coat is too shiny and incorrect. If I go with a laquer, the color might not be quite right, which would be a shame. It's a wonderful color.

But I'm more concerned about the less obvious finishes. Is the fiberglass underbody painted? My car indiicates it is not, but there are steel supports running along the floor pan that need to be cleaned up and painted...what color? Black, most likely, but choosing the wrong color of black or vendor could mean removing the body from the frame a second time to properly repaint them. (If I had to I would, but I wouldn't look forward to it...rather do it right the first time.)

The black in the engine compartment and on the firewall firewall...is there a recommended black paint for those areas? The GM Restoration paint perhaps?

According to the Corvette Chassis and Restoration Guide, the frame was actually painted with a paint that was fuel-soluable. OMG...seriously? No wonder so few are left with original paint and numbering. I'd rather paint it with the GM Restoration paint if that's a close match and more durable. I might trailor it for long distances, but I want to drive it too!

Is there a good place to find information such as this?

[Paul D.]

Re: Fit and finish guide?

Kenn, I think you have already found the best resource for the info you want... membership in the NCRS. Welcome! The search feature of this board will supply countless opinions concerning the issues you mention and then some. Just play with it some. I assume you already have a Assembly Instruction Manual (AIM), available from many venders, as well as the Technical Judging Guide (TJG), available from the NCRS store located on this site. You probably should also get a Judging Reference Manual to get a real feel as to how things work in the judging process. None of my cars are suitable for flight judging, but all have benefited from things I have learned by being a member of this organization. If your car is a long term project and you have some time, I would suggest attending a meet or two at chapter and regional levels to see how others are preparing cars. You may wish to enter your car at a chapter meet just to get a baseline. If the car hasn't been "restored" previously, you may be surprised at the story it can tell. Enjoy the experience. Chip.

[Jack H.]

Re: Fit and finish guide?

There's no single source to reference to get the job 'right'. It's a learning process and there's a learning curve to this sport/hobby. Plus, in the end, it's NOT the final result that you'll remember...it's the PROCESS of getting there, the people you meet and memories you form that stick with you.

In addition to gathering and consulting the various source literature items (Assembly Manual, Judging Guide, Judging Reference Manual, Etc.), you'll find these two tips helpful:

(1) Join and get active in your local NCRS chapter. You'll find folks there who've been there, done that, gotten the T-shirt who will go face to face with you AND who know who does what/has what in your neck of the woods.

(2) DON'T try and do it all in a hurry and by internet/email! Consider SLOWING down your pace of restoration and getting out/about to attend a few NCRS judging meets. Volunteer to be an Observer Judge so you can get up close/personal with the judging process and see first hand how things are done and what judges look for.

I consider both tips IMPORTANT because they involve real world personal interaction. That's something you just won't get no matter how much due diligence you execute with resources such as this Discussion Board...

[Kenn S.]

Re: Fit and finish guide?

Excellent, thanks! I admit I've been looking for the "search" feature in this forum and haven't tripped over it, but that's something I'm sure I'll find soon.

I do have the AIM, both in paper and PDF form, and I have everything NCRS has produced for this car. The judging manual was particularly interesting, but it was also the thing that gave me the most concern. It tells you what is inspected and what is expected, but something as simple as the wrong patina on your headlamp actuators can nail you. The manual can't show me the correct patina. I'm now looking at local electro-plating firms to see what my options are for replating the deteriorated parts. (I can't see restoring the car and leaving corroded parts on board...if that's what I should be doing, I probably shouldn't worry about judging the car...) But the other paints and finishes are still to be researched. I'll look for guidance in the forum...

I've joined the local NCRS chapter and am waiting for a meet to go and ask questions in person. The best part is running into knowledgable people. I've never attempted a full frame-up restoration and am really excited about it. I just wanted to get it right the first time.

I have plenty of time. There is this though: the car was in storage for 22 years and isn't drivable. I really, really want to see what 454 cubic inches of Corvette power feels like. Not enough to rush the job and ruin the car, of course, but I'm sure everyone can understand that desire.

*Thank you* again for responding.

[Thomas H.]

Re: Fit and finish guide?

Kenn,

Welcome to the LS5 Club. The wealth of knowlege here is amazing. As Jack said, take your time and look at several cars at judging meets in your areas. Take pictures, ask questions of the owners. Most owners have "been there, done that" and are usually eager to give out info to keep others from making the same mistakes they did.

Also, don't be afraid to make mistakes, we all do, just learn from them. (Mistakes meaning small things like plating on bolts, not body color ).

Most important, enjoy the experience and post pictures!!

Tom

[Kevin G.]

Re: Fit and finish guide?

Kenn,

Welcome!

How's that old saying go? "A picture is worth a thousand words"......

Feel free to view the link I have attached to my signature for guidance. If you need any specific shots let me know, I'd be happy to snap them for you.

Regards,

[Don H.]

Re: Fit and finish guide?

Kenn
"search" is on the tool bar just below your name at the upper right corner of this page.
Good luck and welcome to the club !

[Terry M.]

Re: Fit and finish guide?

Don't wait for a judging meet. Many Chapters have judging schools and/or Tech sessions especially in the "off season" those of us enjoy in the North. Go and get acquainted. Listen a lot, and make some friends.

Welcome to the TDB.

[Jack H.]

Re: Fit and finish guide?

Amen on Thomas' comment regarding mistakes. Go into the project knowing you WILL make them! Why do I say that?

Well, we had one member of our chapter who was DRIVEN to make his restoration ('63 SWC) 'perfect'. He took FIFTEEN years to get the job done and when the car was finally ready for it's judging campaign, he truly believed it would be a 0-point deduct.

NOT true! There WERE tiny items/aspects here and there that cost a judging point or so. He took the 'news' HARD and wanted to 'fight' each and every judging call. That's the WRONG mind set!

I suggest you think like a Muslim..."Only Allah is perfect". Execute enough due diligence so you don't 'screw up' on the major items (paint, body, engine) and those 1-point here/2-points there issues can be addressed/fixed later.

Each time an owner presents his/her car for judging, we start with a fresh slate. So, the car doesn't have to be 'perfect' the first time out. AND, I can guarantee you it won't be!

In the story I quoted, what if my fellow chapter member hadn't spent 15-years getting to the judging field?

[Alan S.]

Re: Fit and finish guide?

Hi Kenn,
I'm glad to read you're getting ready to 'restore' your car.
I believe you really can't have too much information. If I may, I'd suggest you try to get a first hand look at a BowTie car like Kevin's or another similar to it. I'd also suggest you get to see a restored car that has done very well in National Judging in order to compare the two. Your chapter may be able to put in touch with a member with a restored car as I described.
I think trips to see a car up close and to talk to a knowledgeable owner would be well worth your time and effort.
Maybe you could even get an invitation?!?
Good Luck

[Steven C.]

Re: Fit and finish guide?

There's no single source to reference to get the job 'right'. It's a learning process and there's a learning curve to this sport/hobby. Plus, in the end, it's NOT the final result that you'll remember...it's the PROCESS of getting there, the people you meet and memories you form that stick with you.

In addition to gathering and consulting the various source literature items (Assembly Manual, Judging Guide, Judging Reference Manual, Etc.), you'll find these two tips helpful:

(1) Join and get active in your local NCRS chapter. You'll find folks there who've been there, done that, gotten the T-shirt who will go face to face with you AND who know who does what/has what in your neck of the woods.

(2) DON'T try and do it all in a hurry and by internet/email! Consider SLOWING down your pace of restoration and getting out/about to attend a few NCRS judging meets. Volunteer to be an Observer Judge so you can get up close/personal with the judging process and see first hand how things are done and what judges look for.

I consider both tips IMPORTANT because they involve real world personal interaction. That's something you just won't get no matter how much due diligence you execute with resources such as this Discussion Board...

Jack, good post.

Kenn, I suggest you get involved in your local chapter. That is where you will find out what to do, how to do it and where to source the services you need.

[Chuck S.]

Re: Fit and finish guide?

...But I'm more concerned about the less obvious finishes. Is the fiberglass underbody painted? My car indiicates it is not, but there are steel supports running along the floor pan that need to be cleaned up and painted...what color? Black, most likely, but choosing the wrong color of black or vendor could mean removing the body from the frame a second time to properly repaint them. (If I had to I would, but I wouldn't look forward to it...rather do it right the first time.)

The black in the engine compartment and on the firewall firewall...is there a recommended black paint for those areas? The GM Restoration paint perhaps?

According to the Corvette Chassis and Restoration Guide, the frame was actually painted with a paint that was fuel-soluable. OMG...seriously? No wonder so few are left with original paint and numbering. I'd rather paint it with the GM Restoration paint if that's a close match and more durable. I might trailor it for long distances, but I want to drive it too!

Is there a good place to find information such as this?

Correct...once you get away from overspray on areas near the frame rails, the underbody is raw, unpainted fiberglass.

There are numerous bolting plates and reinforcing plates on the underbody. The plates under the seats were dip painted with GM black primer or "reconditioning paint", but the smaller ones were actually black phosphate coated. Those small plates would have to be removed from the body, "parkerized", and then re-riveted to the body for a perfect restoration. Another approach, if you want to cut corners, it to use one of the spray paints that simulate black phosphate...your call.

Underhood blackout...Yes, GM used a product similar to the current "reconditioning paint" to paint most chassis parts and for blackout, underhood and other places.

I suspect the "Corvette Chassis and Restoration Guide" is actually talking about frame paint used for C2s, maybe 68 and some 69s. By 70, the paint is different...I would say match the gloss and don't worry about using an exact duplicate of that original product which was durability compromised.

If it's an unmolested, original car without a lot of rust, the grease pencil marks will still be there...I guarantee it. Without salt slush spray, the frame is actually in a pretty protected environment.

No...GM restoration paint would not be a good choice for your frame: blast to near white metal, prime VERY soon thereafter with PPG DPLF-90 epoxy primer (1-2 coats), then top coat with 1-2 coats PPG enamel or urethane flattened to frame gloss level.

No, there is no easy shortcut to authentic restoration with all the information you need in one great tome...you have to research each item yourself using published resources and the TDB archives. It's a long ardorous process to get it right.

[Terry M.]

Re: Fit and finish guide?

If it's an unmolested, original car without a lot of rust, the grease pencil marks will still be there...I guarantee it. Without salt slush spray, the frame is actually in a pretty protected environment.

No...GM restoration paint would not be a good choice for your frame: blast to near white metal, prime VERY soon thereafter with PPG DPLF-90 epoxy primer (1-2 coats), then top coat with 1-2 coats PPG enamel or urethane flattened to frame gloss level.

No, there is no easy shortcut to authentic restoration with all the information you need in one great tome...you have to research each item yourself using published resources and the TDB archives. It's a long ardorous process to get it right.

Chuck is absolutely right, but don't ignore what the car tells you. Very often, unless the car is very badly deteriorated, there will be some finish left. Don't overlook it.

[Kenn S.]

Re: Fit and finish guide?

Thanks, guys! This is great information.

If newbie can have a philosophy, mine is that disassembly is as important as assembly. Each piece, if unmolested (some parts are and some are not), can give me a clue as to what needs to be done to properly restore. It'll take time and patience, and intellectually I know that going in.

I'm hoping over time to meet other car owners and get their advice. And if/when I hear of local chapter workshops, I'll be there. I suspect like most of you, I fell in love with these cars at a very young age, and now that I'm older (and have a little more disposable income, although less today than two years ago), I have the chance to 'save' this (to me) beautiful car. It needs the TLC, for sure, but it'll be worth it.

I don't think I'll take 15 years, Jack. And I promise to do my best to take the judging dings in good cheer. I can understand why people take those hits so hard, when you've put a lot into it. But, to me, if it's wrong, it's wrong. Fix it and move on. If YOU restored it, it's YOUR fault if it's wrong. That's why I'm reading everything and researching all I can before I get started. I'll make mistakes, and that's OK. In the end, if I'm driving a 1970 LS-5, is that so bad? I think keeping an eye on the bigger picture is the better way to look at things. It's missing its cooling fan (LS-5 with air), for example. But I found a 1971 fan that should operate as well. I'll take the hit on that one until I can find a properly date-coded fan. If I never do, at least I'm still driving a big-block Corvette. And the fan appears as original even if it's not the right part number.

Chuck, that's exactly the kind of thing I was looking for! Thanks! Now I can ask more intelligent questions when I do meet other owners. I kind of figured I'd have to remove the support members to clean them up properly. Phosphate coated...cool. I'll dig into that. I'll look up the PPG paints, too.

Kevin, wow. If mine looks half as good as yours, I'll be a happy guy. Thanks for the offer for the views...I can see asking other questions as well (like, the radiator shroud on mine is cut in half at the bottom...damage or as original? )

Thanks, Thomas...I've wanted to find a good LS-5 to restore for years, and it'll be worth waiting every minute to fire it up and drive it the first time. Being a web application developer, I figured I'd do something like Tim Coats did with his "Corvette Restoration Page," only I'd be looking to restore this car to an original condition. So my goal would be to post more pictures and provide many details along the way. I've also written many books and can write a lot, and quickly. I'm hoping to share information with other newbies so they don't make the same mistakes I made, or if I happen to have done things right, they can follow the same basic path.

[Terry M.]

Re: Fit and finish guide?

Kevin, wow. If mine looks half as good as yours, I'll be a happy guy. Thanks for the offer for the views...I can see asking other questions as well (like, the radiator shroud on mine is cut in half at the bottom...damage or as original? )

There is a lower extension (as Chevrolet calls it) for your shroud. Sounds like it is missing. There is a reproduction, but I have seen guys complain that it doesn't fit well -- unless they got the small block one by mistake.

FWIW: That fan with the pointed tips fits rather closely to the shroud and if the engine mounts "go south" it is common for the fan to contact the shroud. This of course can damage both the fan and the shroud, and might account for the missing fan and extension.

Every car has a story. The task of the judge is to discover that story.