1967 Horn button white or black upper flag -NEW INFO- are tele & standard different?

[Scott S.]

I have read the archive Threads on this subject, whether the 1967 horn button flag emblem should have a black square or a white square in the uppermost left-hand position of the checkered flag emblem. There are some who have early production original survivor cars who have white, others have black, and NOS examples have been reported in both white and black. The 1967 Judging Guide says "The horn button on 1967 Corvettes is a chrome plated circular casting, with a plastic center insert carrying the familiar Corvette "crossed flags" emblem with a black upper square on the right flag and a black background." - p. 39, 4th edition

Noland Adams' book shows a white square in the uppermost far-left position of the checkered flag (p. 383). But twelve pages later, the same Adams' book states: "The horn button was plastic, with a center emblem of crossed flags on a black background. The upper square on the black-and-white flag was painted black. 27". (p. 395) Footnote "27" says "27 Example: 194377S117601" (p. 455).

I have not seen the following discussed anywhere in the archives. I remembered that the Owner's Manual has pictures of the dashboard, and we might get lucky with a picture of the horn button. I think I have an original Owner's Manual, but I am not certain. It's a little beat up, but if it's a reproduction, it's at least 25 years old.


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On page 20 of the Owner's Manual, there is a STANDARD steering column with a BLACK checker in the uppermost left-hand position. It's hard to see on the computer screen, but it's clear in the manual itself.

On page 21 of the Owner's Manual, there is a TELESCOPIC steering column with a WHITE checker in the uppermost left-hand position.

I'm sure many people here DO have a verified original Owner's Manual, and if it shows the same pictures as mine, is there any earlier positively identified GM source photograph of an original, factory production correct horn button besides a "FIRST EDITION AUGUST, 1966" Owner's Manual?
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The photograph in Noland Adams' book (p.383) is of a TELESCOPIC steering column with a WHITE checker in the uppermost left-hand position.

Is it possible that telescopic steering columns were factory produced with a horn button that had a white upper-left hand checker, and standard steering columns were factory produced with a black upper-left hand checker, and this explains the white checker/black checker discrepancy on original cars?

The Owner's Manual shows both, in pictures taken August 1966 or earlier... in both the Owner's Manual and the Noland Adams book, the telescopic steering column has a white upper-leftmost checker.


[edit 1: The Vette Vues Factbook of the 1963-1967 STINGRAY (Dobbins, 2nd edition, October 1977) shows the Telescopic steering column with a black upper-leftmost checker, p. 88. The 9th edition, October 1989, has the same picture on p. 290. However, I don't know any way to tell for sure whether the picture in the Dobbins Fact Book (or the Adams Restoration Guide, for that matter) was that way from the factory. That leaves the pictures in the Owner's Manual as the earliest official GM source photographs that I am aware of.]

[edit 2: original GM horn button part number: 3899365]

[Mark K.]

Re: 1967 Horn button white or black upper flag -NEW INFO- are tele & standard differe

Scott,

For what it's worth, I have an unrestored 67 with the horn button having the WHITE checker in the uppermost left hand corner. My car is fairly early as a December build - 5304 - and is a standard column.

Also, I think the judging manual needs to be changed for this item and NOT specify the flag color orientation.

[Scott S.]

Re: 1967 Horn button white or black upper flag -NEW INFO- are tele & standard differe

Scott,

For what it's worth, I have an unrestored 67 with the horn button having the WHITE checker in the uppermost left hand corner. My car is fairly early as a December build - 5304 - and is a standard column.

Thanks for the reply Mark. At this point, it seems there isn't any rhyme or reason as to why a particular car received one horn button or the other, but the Owner's Manual that I have shows both kinds in service. If you have ever had the horn button off, does it have the same part number (3899365)? I suspect it would, since that number is cast into the metal outer ring housing on the underside of the horn button and may be a part number for the entire horn button 'assembly', but I wonder if there is a different part number for the actual centerpiece emblem with crossed flags, black checker vs. white checker? Maybe not stamped on the back of the centerpiece itself (probably too thin), but buried somewhere in the early parts books, listed with an individual part number of a larger whole assembly?

I don't know how likely it is that a centerpiece with a black uppermost left hand corner and a centerpiece with a white uppermost left hand corner would have the same part number, since it would have required an alternate paint set-up at the very least.

Also, I think the judging manual needs to be changed for this item and NOT specify the flag color orientation.

If an original August 1966 First Edition owner's manual for the 1967 model year shows the same pictures as mine (I'm not sure yet if mine is original) then authentic 1966 GM source photographs clearly show a black checker in the uppermost left hand corner AND a white checker in the uppermost left hand corner for 1967 horn buttons, on two consecutive pages (p. 20-21).

It would be interesting to find out if modern reproduction owner's manuals show the same pictures (a black top-left checker horn button on p. 20, white top-left checker on p. 21), and whether anyone with a known original 1966 first edition owner's manual shows the same pictures as I posted.

[R N.]

Re: 1967 Horn button white or black upper flag -NEW INFO- are tele & standard differe

Scott,

For what it's worth, I have an unrestored 67 with the horn button having the WHITE checker in the uppermost left hand corner. My car is fairly early as a December build - 5304 - and is a standard column.

Also, I think the judging manual needs to be changed for this item and NOT specify the flag color orientation.

My '67 standard steering, December (5818) also has the white checker.

[John H.]

Re: 1967 Horn button white or black upper flag -NEW INFO- are tele & standard differe

authentic 1966 GM source photographs clearly show a black checker in the uppermost left hand corner AND a white checker in the uppermost left hand corner for 1967 horn buttons, on two consecutive pages (p. 20-21).

Scott -

I would hardly consider photos in owner's manuals as "authentic GM photographs" - they were put together by Campbell-Ewald (Chevy's ad agency) from whatever they had available at the time.

This debate has festered for decades, and I don't expect any miraculous discoveries to settle it any time soon, as there's plenty of "evidence" to support any and all theories about what's correct (if anything was indeed "correct" at the time).

In any event, the maximum deduction for it is ONE point; hardly worth obsessing over.

[Mark K.]

Re: 1967 Horn button white or black upper flag -NEW INFO- are tele & standard differe

Scott -

I would hardly consider photos in owner's manuals as "authentic GM photographs" - they were put together by Campbell-Ewald (Chevy's ad agency) from whatever they had available at the time.

This debate has festered for decades, and I don't expect any miraculous discoveries to settle it any time soon, as there's plenty of "evidence" to support any and all theories about what's correct (if anything was indeed "correct" at the time).

In any event, the maximum deduction for it is ONE point; hardly worth obsessing over.

John,

All the more reason why the issue should be resolved. Looking past the owner's manual, there are two pictures in Nolan Adams' book that are identified as GM pictures, one of which is identified as a February 1967 GM photo(page 436) - clearly well beyond prototype phase. Both pictures have white in the left uppermost part of the flag.

When my unrestored car was judged at an NCRS regional event some 10 years or so ago, the lead for the interior judging told me that my car was the most original 67 interior he had seen - and yet it has white in the left uppermost corner of the horn flag. Since there are no other reproduction parts in the interior, there would be virtually zero probability that ONLY the horn button could have been changed.

The prior owner to me has had the car since 1970 (when I bought it in 1995). He did not change the horn button. Neither did the original owner when I spoke with him (and he told me lots about what he did with the car). The dealership and the owner (who sold the car twice to both the prior owners and remembers the car) still has all the invoice information AND the service records and there is no mention of the horn button being changed.

The February 67 GM photo should be more than enough documentation to put the issue to bed. If anything, I think the evidence that is in the judging manual that asserts that black is the correct color for the spot in question needs to be evaluated. There is too much evidence that shows the contrary to be typical factory production (not that I am questioning the existence of "black" being original too).

While I certainly have not seen anywhere near the number of cars as you, every time I'm confronted with an original 67, I always run to the horn button first - and a fair percentage of them do have "white" horn buttons with their owners puzzled over what is in the judging manual. I think this item really does need to be re-written.

[John H.]

Re: 1967 Horn button white or black upper flag -NEW INFO- are tele & standard differe

While I certainly have not seen anywhere near the number of cars as you, every time I'm confronted with an original 67, I always run to the horn button first - and a fair percentage of them do have "white" horn buttons with their owners puzzled over what is in the judging manual. I think this item really does need to be re-written.

Mark -

I don't disagree at all; I just don't know enough personally about the subject to recommend a change. If someone has researched the issue and has a convincing story to support a conclusion, I'm sure Nick would consider it.

The '67 JG revision system works, but a recommendation for a change needs to be supported with data, and submitted to the National Team Leader for consideration; just "I think it should be...." isn't enough.

Maybe someone will pick this one up and put a convincing story together.

[Mark K.]

Re: 1967 Horn button white or black upper flag -NEW INFO- are tele & standard differe

Mark -

I don't disagree at all; I just don't know enough personally about the subject to recommend a change. If someone has researched the issue and has a convincing story to support a conclusion, I'm sure Nick would consider it.

The '67 JG revision system works, but a recommendation for a change needs to be supported with data, and submitted to the National Team Leader for consideration; just "I think it should be...." isn't enough.

Maybe someone will pick this one up and put a convincing story together.

John,

I would be happy to make an attempt, but I'm not sure what level of "documentation" would be acceptable in this case. I certainly do not have access to GM documents. I would be interested in seeing all the photos that Nolan was working with and how they were notated.

I also know that my interest in this topic has been somewhat driven by my car, but I haven't exactly taken serial numbers down for the other 67s I have looked at over the years. It hasn't been too much of an issue for me since I never had any points taken off for the color differential and still received top flight status for the car when it was judged.

If you could give me a sense for what would meet the objective target to support development of a presentation, I would appreciate it. Perhaps we can discuss this at the next Michigan NCRS event.

[Terry M.]

Re: 1967 Horn button white or black upper flag -NEW INFO- are tele & standard differe

John,

I would be happy to make an attempt, but I'm not sure what level of "documentation" would be acceptable in this case. I certainly do not have access to GM documents. I would be interested in seeing all the photos that Nolan was working with and how they were notated.

I also know that my interest in this topic has been somewhat driven by my car, but I haven't exactly taken serial numbers down for the other 67s I have looked at over the years. It hasn't been too much of an issue for me since I never had any points taken off for the color differential and still received top flight status for the car when it was judged.

If you could give me a sense for what would meet the objective target to support development of a presentation, I would appreciate it. Perhaps we can discuss this at the next Michigan NCRS event.

Mark,

It is too bad you didn't document your research. I don't know about for 1967, but for the early C3 era, where I have been on several JM revision teams, such research is weighed heavily if it is documented. Without that documentation .......

"It hasn't been too much of an issue for me since I never had any points taken off for the color differential...." Really! And the purpose of this thread is ...????? If this were CF I would ask for my click back.

[Robert G.]

Re: 1967 Horn button white or black upper flag -NEW INFO- are tele & standard differe

Does the AIM have anything to say about this? If so, that probably would have been noticed before. If there is a difference, maybe the tele columns were built on a different line or at a different time.

[Scott S.]

Re: 1967 Horn button white or black upper flag -NEW INFO- are tele & standard differe

At the very least, the painting apparatus would have to be purposefully changed if both types (white checker and black checker at top left) were made by the same manufacturer, and presumably there would need to be a reason to change it, before going to the trouble (and expense) to do so. If the emblem centerpiece was made by more than one manufacturer, there should be a record of it, somewhere. And shouldn't the centerpiece with the crossed flags emblem have its own part number, even if it's not stamped anywhere on the part itself, a part number separate from the part number assigned to the horn button assembly as a whole?

As far as the owner's manual is concerned, I was thinking of the date-of-printing aspect more than anything else. If the original 1st edition owner's manuals were printed in (or prior to) the August, 1966 copyright date stated on my owner's manual, the source of the pictures may be questionable (i.e., the ad agency), but they couldn't go into the future to get them, and the pictures are not from their recent past at that point in time (1965-1966 style) either. The ad agency wasn't producing its own parts for the photo layouts, right?

We can tell from the pictures in the owner's manual that it is not a 1966 horn button, and it's not a 1968 horn button. If both types (white checker and black checker in the upper left corner) were pictured on a Corvette steering wheel for an owner's manual that was printed in or about August 1966, didn't both types of horn buttons have to be in existence in August 1966?

It's not about the Judging point (only 1 point), it's just interesting, a mystery about a highly visible part of the car, with lots of available evidence to consider and evaluate.

[Terry M.]

Re: 1967 Horn button white or black upper flag -NEW INFO- are tele & standard differe

At the very least, the painting apparatus would have to be purposefully changed if both types (white checker and black checker at top left) were made by the same manufacturer, and presumably there would need to be a reason to change it, before going to the trouble (and expense) to do so. If the emblem centerpiece was made by more than one manufacturer, there should be a record of it, somewhere. And shouldn't the centerpiece with the crossed flags emblem have its own part number, even if it's not stamped anywhere on the part itself, a part number separate from the part number assigned to the horn button assembly as a whole?

As far as the owner's manual is concerned, I was thinking of the date-of-printing aspect more than anything else. If the original 1st edition owner's manuals were printed in (or prior to) the August, 1966 copyright date stated on my owner's manual, the source of the pictures may be questionable (i.e., the ad agency), but they couldn't go into the future to get them, and the pictures are not from their recent past at that point in time (1965-1966 style) either. The ad agency wasn't producing its own parts for the photo layouts, right?

We can tell from the pictures in the owner's manual that it is not a 1966 horn button, and it's not a 1968 horn button. If both types (white checker and black checker in the upper left corner) were pictured on a Corvette steering wheel for an owner's manual that was printed in or about August 1966, didn't both types of horn buttons have to be in existence in August 1966?

It's not about the Judging point (only 1 point), it's just interesting, a mystery about a highly visible part of the car, with lots of available evidence to consider and evaluate.

Prototype parts were made for evaluation, and those parts could have been used for early photographic purposes. At the time the Owner's Manual was put together there may have been no production 1967 Corvettes in existence. The folks working on the Owner's Manual were not likely interested in the same level of detail we are -- and so they would never notice the flag color change.

If those photos are of prototype parts the chances of finding a record of the individual parts making up the horn button assembly may be slim. On the other hand, stranger things have emerged from the dusty recesses.

[Scott S.]

Re: 1967 Horn button white or black upper flag -NEW INFO- are tele & standard differe

There is an NOS 1967 outer horn cap ring-only on the usual auction website, search item # 140417467091, titled "NOS 63 64 65 66 67 CORVETTE HORN CAP RING". It appears to have the rounded smooth edges of a 1967 horn cap. The box is also shown, with the following information:

GR. 2.820 CAP ASM 1# 3899365 (in the older blue & white GM box).

There is no crossed flags emblem centerpiece mentioned, pictured or included, even though the box has the whole horn button assembly number (3899365) printed on the outside. If GM sold the outer horn ring as a separate service piece, did they not also sell the centerpiece with the crossed flag emblem as a separate service piece?

If so, under what part number, and who was the supplier?

[Warren S.]

Re: 1967 Horn button white or black upper flag -NEW INFO- are tele & standard differe

My 67 (5439), with an assembly date of December 7, has the telescopic steering column with the original horn button that has a WHITE checker in the uppermost left-hand position.
Warren (11327)