1969 "EARLY" body shim marks

[Kenny C.]

Help Please
A couple of questions that so far I have not been able to get definitive answers from searching the archives.
My car was built in Mid March 1969 and would be considered early production as far as all of the other typical indicators of production.

1. Do the shim markings on the frame go forward or aft of each body mount location and should those marks be slashes or numbers?
2. All my mounts were fairly even as far as number of shims. Ranging from two to four at each location with the exception of the #4 mount on the drivers side. That location had a whopping 12 shims. The quantity of shims seems excessive but it works fine I have very good gaps so it is what it is. However since I have never seen this many before I have no idea how to mark it on the frame? The number "12" or slashes with cross slashes?

Any advice would be appreciated I am doing final assembly and touch up and would like to get this correct prior to installing rocker covers.
Regards
Kenny

[Terry B.]

Re: 1969 "EARLY" body shim marks

Kenny,

I had a similar problem with deciding what type of marks for the body shims, slashes or numbers, on the body off I did in 2006 on my '68. I went with the numbers and not the slashes.

I had a Quanta Chassis detailing kit and it stated that in late '69 they changed to numbers from slashes. I know however, there was support for my '68 to have the numbers too. I placed numbers and not slashes on my '68 frame. I hope someone will support the '68 "numbers" that I did and reply. I do not remember the resource I used at the time.

On the issue of 12 shims, that sounds like a mistake was made somewhere.

[Kenny C.]

Re: 1969 "EARLY" body shim marks

My Quanta kit said the same thing however I have read some threads that felt it could have gone either way in mid 69. I was actually wanting to use numbers rather than slashes and was hoping to get some feed back here as to whether or not this would be appropriate or would I take a judging hit? As for the 12 shims at location #4 it is what it is. I was there and counted them when the body came off and it was definitely original and with all the tape and rust you would expect after 38 years. Who knows maybe the guy welding the tab mount that day had a rough night the day before!

[Terry B.]

Re: 1969 "EARLY" body shim marks

I'm not sure where all the '68-'69 Chasiss judges are today, maybe watching football, but I think someone will chime in eventually. An email to Team Leader Chuck Berge might be the thing to do.

[Grant W.]

Re: 1969 "EARLY" body shim marks

I'm not sure where all the '68-'69 Chasiss judges are today, maybe watching football, but I think someone will chime in eventually. An email to Team Leader Chuck Berge might be the thing to do.

I went to my 1982 Bend Oregon album and looked at the 68 and 69 cars. The 68 had lines and so did the 69. I'm not sure if the 69 was a late car or not. If there was no shims then a O is marked on it. Whitish crayon.
Here is pictures of a 70 frame and in green chalk with numbers.
I did my 68 with lines as I did a lot of asking previously. After many years of looking at cars I finally got into judging a couple of years ago and judged in Bend a survivor 68 400 hp and a late 68 L89 17K miles and they both had the lines. Both beautiful cars. They incidentally were both top flighted. The survivor went on further and got Bowtie.
Hope this helps.
Grant

[Kenny C.]

Re: 1969 "EARLY" body shim marks

Grant
Thank you for the help. the picture are great they show where the markings are supposed to go very nicely. I was hoping that I would get a little more input possibly supporting that numbers were being used on the 69 as well as slashes. If it turns out that it definitely should be slashes does anyone out there have a picture of a car with more than 5 in one location? I am figuring that my spot with 12 shims is going to get very crowded looking with all those has marks, I'm afraid to make it look like a blob of crayon.

[Paul O.]

Re: 1969 "EARLY" body shim marks

Kenny the first question I have for you did any of your mount points have the aluminum spacer installed and are you positive the body has never been off before?

The reason I ask 12 shims seams rather excessive and I would think quality control would have rejected that amount. But you never know. I have seen cars where those aluminum spacers were only installed at the number 4 position.

Next question there should be at least 1 mount point where there is a zero or no markings/no shims? This is due to the fact that the frame fixture would have to touch 1 mount point before the shim count would start. Them the worker would use his step tool to see how many shims need to be installed.
From my notes we have seen both slashes and Arabic on 69 frames and the change over occurred some time in 69 but as with most change overs there is no definitive point at this time that I am aware of.

As Terry has pointed out contact Chuck Berge and see if he has any more info they are working on a new Judging Manual that should be coming out in the near future. Paul 18046

[Kenny C.]

Re: 1969 "EARLY" body shim marks

Paul
Yes the aluminum spacers were in all four of the normal mount locations, and yes I am absolutely positive its never been apart before now. I have owned it for over thirty years and am the second owner. The lowest number of shims was 1 there were no zero shim locations. Although I agree that the excessive number of shims at the #4 mount is abnormal but it is what it is. And as I stated when I did the body drop it went together perfectly with the gaps better than I see on most cars so I have to assume that it is correct. my car was built just prior to the strike that year so maybe it went through quality control easier than what was typical. I am not looking to change shim stacks at this point no matter what but need to figure out how to mark them.
Regards
Kenny

[Graeme B.]

Re: 1969 "EARLY" body shim marks

Kenny, I had a '69 ,about vin 27,000 that had slash marks for numbers. Can check exact # if required.

[Paul O.]

Re: 1969 "EARLY" body shim marks

Kenny I would suggest you go with slashes. Don't mark across 4 slashes to make a 5 make 12 single slashes in a row forward of the mount. I checked back through some of my notes on original cars late build around 35000 had slashes.
Paul 18046

[Kenny C.]

Re: 1969 "EARLY" body shim marks

Paul
Thanks very much for your help. The more I look into this it does seem that slashes are very likely the way to go (darn it). I have seen reference to using a diagonal slash for making the five count. I don't know if this is correct or not but you seem confident that it is not. May I ask why you believe it should be done using only vertical slashes? Is this based on personal observation or established documented protocol? You clearly have an extensive background and I don't mean to question your expertise just looking for clarification.
Many Thanks
Kenny

[Paul O.]

Re: 1969 "EARLY" body shim marks

Kenny this what I have personally seen on 69 and other year Bowtie cars. Here is a photo from M. Hanson from the assembly line look like 1965 or 66. Load this photo on you computer and you can the enlarge it. Look at the 2nd chassis and you can count 5 slashes not 4 and a diagonal slash. Hope this helps. Paul 18046

[Kenny C.]

Re: 1969 "EARLY" body shim marks

Paul
Well that looks like pretty compelling evidence that they did not use cross slashes.

[Mark R.]

Re: 1969 "EARLY" body shim marks

Kenny:

Have you been able to get any feedback from Chuck Berge on this issue ?

The 1968-69 TIM&JG 3rd edition states: "The frame often contains grease pencil numbers to indicate the number of shims to be added to each body mount. These are Arabic numbers, not Roman numbers. Sometimes a frame will be seen with no numbers. Other marks are sometimes seen to aid in assembly. A green "OK" marked upside down has been seen on the front of the front cross member." p. 83

In the 1969 Stingray Guidebook, Rick Bizzoco states: "At the start of the line the frame is hoisted and placed upside down in a frame fixture and measured for body tolerances. The fixture determined the rear suspension settings and accurately measured how many shims were needed at each body mount. After taking these measurements a workman marks the number of shims required at each body mount on the side of the frame. The number 3 equals 3 shims...Although in earlier years lines were used to indicate shim number, by 1969 shim lines were replaced with Arabic numbers such as 0,3,0 and so on; these were written so they could be read when the frame was upright." Rick provides a photo of a frame with a 3 to illustrate the point. I believe he indicated this example to come from car # 738100. p. 9

This information doesn't contradict the information previously provided by responders to this thread;but, it may suggest the transition from lines to numbers took place sometime after mid-August 1969.

It would be very helpful to get clarity regarding this issue.

Mark

[Kenny C.]

Re: 1969 "EARLY" body shim marks

Mark
I sent Chuck a private message asking for some help on the issue but never got a reply. However after thinking over all the information everyone was kind enough to provide, yourself included I went ahead and used slashes. My car is a mid March build so it seems that slashes are the most likely marking that would have been used. Besides right or wrong it comes down to what the judges "expect" and are going to accept as correct. So that being said I now have slashes and the area ahead of #4 drivers looks like a picket fence in a wind storm. Funny thing is you know that I am going to get questioned anyway about how many shims are at that location even if it is correct. And the average non NCRS guy is going to say "nice car but couldn't you wipe that junk off the frame"? Oh well time to move on the the next item that needs to be obsessed over for weeks.
Best Regards
Kenny