Need help determining "correct" dimensions of DS exhaust head pipe

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  • Joe R.
    Extremely Frequent Poster
    • March 1, 2002
    • 1356

    Need help determining "correct" dimensions of DS exhaust head pipe

    Hello All:

    I have an "originality" question about the driver's side head pipe on 1965 small blocks with the 2.5 inch exhaust. The basic question is how far the driver's side (DS) head pipe should hang down next to the oil pan, especially when compared to the passenger side (PS). This affects ground clearance and aesthetics.

    The details of my question are bit complicated to explain, but if you will bear with me I think I can present the issue clearly, and it may be of interest to some of you. At the heart of it is an "originality" question. So, here goes:

    1) I recently put 1965 2.5 inch manifolds on my 67, and ordered a new 2.5 inch exhaust system from Allens.

    2) During installation, I noticed that the DS head pipe from Allens did not seem to align well. I got it in, but it was difficult.

    3) In a subsequent effort to install oxygen sensor bungs in the head pipes, I screwed up the work and had to order a new set of head pipes. Since the Allens DS pipe didn't seem to fit well, I ordered the second set of head pipes from Corvette Central (CC).

    4) The DS head pipe from CC lines up better than the Allens version and goes in easily, but it hangs down a LOT farther than the Allens head pipe. The difference is about two inches.


    It seems to me that the DS and PS head pipes should both hang down about the same amount, but with the CC set, the DS side is about 2 inches lower than the PS side. In the Allens set, the height of both pipes is about the same, and looks better. Note that in all cases, I have a heat riser installed on the PS, so this is not affecting the results.

    I talked to CC and they claim that in the original GM design, the DS pipe does hang down somewhat lower than the PS pipe, although they don't know why. They say that their pipe is "correct."

    I'm not sure I believe this, but I figured there might be some members here who have (or have seen) original pipes. I think the attached photos clearly show the difference between the CC and Allens pipes, both side-by-side and installed on the car.

    Note that the CC pipe is so low that if you could push it sideways, it would pass completely under the OEM oil filter cannister. It is, by far, the lowest point on the underside of the car in that area.

    So, did GM really design their pipes this way? Anyone else have CC pipes on their car that look like this? The last photo shows the "height" dimension of the DS pipe from CC.
    Attached Files
  • Joe C.
    Expired
    • September 1, 1999
    • 4598

    #2
    Re: Need help determining "correct" dimensions of DS exhaust head pipe

    Hi Joe,

    Hopefully this will assist you in determining your next move. The only reason I'm answering you here and not "off the board", is because you've gotten no responses so far.

    I have GM issue side pipes on my 327/365 (L76). If I lay a straightedge across the "flat" of the oil pan bottom (your 5 quart pan has same depth as my 6 quart pan), the bottom surfaces of BOTH SIDES head pipes are equally, 1 1/4" ABOVE the "flat" of the pan.

    Of course, your under car system is not the same, but I would think that GM, in its "infinite wisdom" would have been very conscious of ground clearance in the VERY CRITICAL oil pan area. It seems intuitive that your Allens system more closely matches the original design, despite the fact that it hangs below the pan. The lesser of 2 evils, considering the fact that the CC head pipe hangs much lower.
    Last edited by Joe C.; October 13, 2009, 11:52 AM.

    Comment

    • Wayne M.
      Expired
      • March 1, 1980
      • 6414

      #3
      Re: Need help determining "correct" dimensions of DS exhaust head pipe

      Joe -- here's a '65 under-car L76 exhaust. Not factory installed, but GM service, circa mid-1980, so no re-pop. Bottom of exhaust (both L & R) slighly below bottom of pan (at the back, near the drain). You can see that filter canister ends about half way down the diameter of driver side pipe.
      Attached Files

      Comment

      • Alan D.
        Extremely Frequent Poster
        • January 1, 2005
        • 2016

        #4
        Re: Need help determining "correct" dimensions of DS exhaust head pipe

        Joe,
        Never got CC DS pipe to ever fit on my car. Was able to borrow an original GM DS down pipe which fit right on! Informed CC about fit problem with 8 -10 pictures of GM v CC; response "The computer makes the bends according to GM specification so we know its right."
        Just tossed the pipe (write it off not worth the argument)
        Was able to find a real pipe from a local member.

        Pipes are still on my car drop by. Think they should hang the same as a newer car.
        Last edited by Alan D.; June 16, 2010, 08:24 AM.

        Comment

        • Joe C.
          Expired
          • September 1, 1999
          • 4598

          #5
          Re: Need help determining "correct" dimensions of DS exhaust head pipe

          Originally posted by Alan Drake (43261)
          Joe,
          Never got CC DS pipe to ever fit on my car. Was able to borrow an original GM DS down pipe which fit right on! Informed CC about fit problem with 8 -10 pictures of GM v CC; response "The computer makes the bends according to GM specification so we know its right."
          Just tossed the pipe (write it off not worth the argument)
          Was able to find a real pipe from a local member.

          Pipes are still on my car drop by. Think they should hang the same as a newer car.
          Just curious.......why the road draft tube?
          What's that welded to the oil pan.........is it a temp sender?

          Comment

          • John D.
            Very Frequent User
            • July 1, 1991
            • 874

            #6
            Re: Need help determining "correct" dimensions of DS exhaust head pipe

            What's the GM part number for the pipe ??????

            Comment

            • Wayne M.
              Expired
              • March 1, 1980
              • 6414

              #7
              Re: Need help determining "correct" dimensions of DS exhaust head pipe

              Originally posted by John Daly (19684)
              What's the GM part number for the pipe ??????
              Per P&A catalog, Group 3.609, '64 and '65 w/H/Per., Sp. H/Per., F.I. (exc. P.G.) #3849861 (LH), and '862' (RH) [ie. for 2_1/2" exhaust manifolds].

              Comment

              • Alan D.
                Extremely Frequent Poster
                • January 1, 2005
                • 2016

                #8
                Re: Need help determining "correct" dimensions of DS exhaust head pipe

                Boy that's an old picture!
                "Just curious.......why the road draft tube?" Keep any oil out of FI unit, a sixty's mod.

                What's that welded to the oil pan.........is it a temp sender? " Yes, so still had the wooden dash in.

                And I can see more stuff that NCRS would not like but all back to normal now.

                Comment

                • Joe R.
                  Extremely Frequent Poster
                  • March 1, 2002
                  • 1356

                  #9
                  Re: Need help determining "correct" dimensions of DS exhaust head pipe

                  Originally posted by Wayne Midkiff (3437)
                  Joe -- here's a '65 under-car L76 exhaust. Not factory installed, but GM service, circa mid-1980, so no re-pop. Bottom of exhaust (both L & R) slighly below bottom of pan (at the back, near the drain). You can see that filter canister ends about half way down the diameter of driver side pipe.

                  Hi Wayne:

                  Thanks for the photo. Aesthetically, the correct elevation would be to have the pipe located so that the OEM oil cannister hangs down 1/2 to 3/4 of the diameter of the pipe. That's about where the Allens pipe sits. The CC pipe that I have is 100% below the oil cannister, and it looks odd to me.

                  I'm hoping that some members who have CC pipes on their cars can check to see whether the CC pipe that I have is typical of the CC design. If I can get some more data on this topic, I will forward this thread to CC.

                  Comment

                  • Joe R.
                    Extremely Frequent Poster
                    • March 1, 2002
                    • 1356

                    #10
                    Re: Need help determining "correct" dimensions of DS exhaust head pipe

                    Hi Allan:

                    Is that a spin-on oil filter in the photo you posted? If you now have a GM pipe and an OEM oil cannister on the car, I would be very interested to know where the bottom of the oil cannister falls with respect to the pipe.

                    Comment

                    • Alan D.
                      Extremely Frequent Poster
                      • January 1, 2005
                      • 2016

                      #11
                      Re: Need help determining "correct" dimensions of DS exhaust head pipe

                      Using a straight edge across pipe to pipe (at bend) the oil filter sets 1.5" above bottom of pipes.
                      Same straight edge the oil pan (at flat) is 3/8" above bottom of pipes.
                      Moving back a little, but still on pipes the bell housing is 3/4" above the bottom of pipes.
                      So the pipes are the lowest thing on the car.

                      The right pipe is a CC - rest are GM. Car still in NCRS show configuration.
                      Alan

                      Comment

                      • Joe R.
                        Extremely Frequent Poster
                        • March 1, 2002
                        • 1356

                        #12
                        Re: Need help determining "correct" dimensions of DS exhaust head pipe

                        Hi Alan:

                        I like your measurement method of using a straight edge across the bottom of the pipes and measuring from that reference up to the bottom of the OEM filter cannister. It easy to do and fairly accurate, since the oil cannister is right next to the pipe in question. The measurement will have very little sensitivity to the placement of the DS pipe.

                        On my car this dimension is about 2.3 inches, compared to 1.5 inches on your car. So, my CC pipe is 0.8 inches lower than your GM pipe. It's about 2 inches lower than the Allens pipe.

                        Do you have the GM part number for the DS pipe that is on your car?

                        Comment

                        • Henry J.
                          Very Frequent User
                          • November 1, 1999
                          • 457

                          #13
                          Re: Need help determining "correct" dimensions of DS exhaust head pipe

                          Joe:

                          My 66 L79, with original oil filter canister, has a CC exhaust system. My car's exhaust system appears very much like the photos presented by Wayne.

                          Comment

                          • Alan D.
                            Extremely Frequent Poster
                            • January 1, 2005
                            • 2016

                            #14
                            Re: Need help determining "correct" dimensions of DS exhaust head pipe

                            pn is 3849861

                            Comment

                            • Joe L.
                              Beyond Control Poster
                              • February 1, 1988
                              • 43129

                              #15
                              Re: Need help determining "correct" dimensions of DS exhaust head pipe

                              Originally posted by Joe Randolph (37610)
                              Hello All:

                              I have an "originality" question about the driver's side head pipe on 1965 small blocks with the 2.5 inch exhaust. The basic question is how far the driver's side (DS) head pipe should hang down next to the oil pan, especially when compared to the passenger side (PS). This affects ground clearance and aesthetics.

                              The details of my question are bit complicated to explain, but if you will bear with me I think I can present the issue clearly, and it may be of interest to some of you. At the heart of it is an "originality" question. So, here goes:

                              1) I recently put 1965 2.5 inch manifolds on my 67, and ordered a new 2.5 inch exhaust system from Allens.

                              2) During installation, I noticed that the DS head pipe from Allens did not seem to align well. I got it in, but it was difficult.

                              3) In a subsequent effort to install oxygen sensor bungs in the head pipes, I screwed up the work and had to order a new set of head pipes. Since the Allens DS pipe didn't seem to fit well, I ordered the second set of head pipes from Corvette Central (CC).

                              4) The DS head pipe from CC lines up better than the Allens version and goes in easily, but it hangs down a LOT farther than the Allens head pipe. The difference is about two inches.


                              It seems to me that the DS and PS head pipes should both hang down about the same amount, but with the CC set, the DS side is about 2 inches lower than the PS side. In the Allens set, the height of both pipes is about the same, and looks better. Note that in all cases, I have a heat riser installed on the PS, so this is not affecting the results.

                              I talked to CC and they claim that in the original GM design, the DS pipe does hang down somewhat lower than the PS pipe, although they don't know why. They say that their pipe is "correct."

                              I'm not sure I believe this, but I figured there might be some members here who have (or have seen) original pipes. I think the attached photos clearly show the difference between the CC and Allens pipes, both side-by-side and installed on the car.

                              Note that the CC pipe is so low that if you could push it sideways, it would pass completely under the OEM oil filter cannister. It is, by far, the lowest point on the underside of the car in that area.

                              So, did GM really design their pipes this way? Anyone else have CC pipes on their car that look like this? The last photo shows the "height" dimension of the DS pipe from CC.
                              Joe-----

                              Incidentally, why would you want to install oxygen sensor fittings on the pipes? Some sort of tuning aid?
                              In Appreciation of John Hinckley

                              Comment

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