Frame weld questions

**Kenny C.** · September 25, 2009, 01:21 AM

Re: Frame weld questions

I believe that the first weld area is from a clutch cross shaft mount for a manual transmission car, was this always a automatic car? The cracks in the last picture don't appear to be a tooling issue but I don't think its anything to worry about from a structural view point.

**Chuck S.** · September 25, 2009, 01:07 PM

Re: Frame weld questions

Originally posted by Kenny Chandler (50158)

I believe that the first weld area is from a clutch cross shaft mount for a manual transmission car, was this always a automatic car? The cracks in the last picture don't appear to be a tooling issue but I don't think its anything to worry about from a structural view point.

I agree...that location is where the clutch cross shaft was welded on manual transmission car frames. One wing of the bracket would have been where there appears to be only tack welds.

The bracket appears to have been cut off close to the weld, but I suppose it could have been an aborted factory screwup. A minor cosmetic defect would probably not cause the frame to be rejected.

You could take the investigation further by close examination of the transmission support crossmember for "post factory modification". Manual transmission frames have the support crossmember permanently welded in position; automatic frames have a bolted crossmember necessary for removal of the larger transmission.

For judging, your best bet is to confirm the appearance of that area on auto transmission frames, and duplicate it. Note that frames are typically NOT continously welded along the top of the side rail...they are "stitch welded". If you find a normally configured transmission support crossmember underneath, it is likely this was a factory screwup IMO. In that case, you get to decide to keep it factory original or "restore" to expected configuration.

**Steve G.** · September 25, 2009, 01:47 PM

Re: Frame weld questions

At the top of the 'extra weld' there are grinding marks as though something was cut off. So it makes sense that a mistake was probably made at the factory.

The car is an automatic. The correct s/n is still on the transmission, the steel plug on firewall was still in place (to cover hole in firewall for what would be the clutch linkage for manual car?) and no holes in what looks to be original floor. So I would say this car has never been a manual transmission. The tranny crossmember is removable, as it should be for automatic. I will go to body shop tomorrow to check the sides of the framerail to see if there are any signs of a manual cross member weld. Chuck, I assume your comments re: stitch welding are confirming the welds on top side of what you can see looks correct? What would you do - grind it off?

**Chuck S.** · September 25, 2009, 05:03 PM

Re: Frame weld questions

Originally posted by Steve Geldart (49781)

At the top of the 'extra weld' there are grinding marks as though something was cut off. So it makes sense that a mistake was probably made at the factory.

The car is an automatic. The correct s/n is still on the transmission, the steel plug on firewall was still in place (to cover hole in firewall for what would be the clutch linkage for manual car?) and no holes in what looks to be original floor. So I would say this car has never been a manual transmission. The tranny crossmember is removable, as it should be for automatic. I will go to body shop tomorrow to check the sides of the framerail to see if there are any signs of a manual cross member weld. Chuck, I assume your comments re: stitch welding are confirming the welds on top side of what you can see looks correct? What would you do - grind it off?

Any attributes you observe on the body would be irrelevant to the originality of the frame since the body was dropped onto the chassis after the frame was selected and the chassis assembled. A temporary conversion to manual transmission could have been made by an owner, then all the original parts reinstalled.

Stitch welding in this case consists of laying down about two or more inches of weld, then leaving an unwelded length of approximately the same length all along the weld seam. Note that the area along the frame rail "joint" is intentionally not welded (typical) where it appears the cross shaft bracket was partially welded, say 2/3 of it's length, then cut off. All the frames were stitch welded...don't mess with the stitch welding.

I suspect this was a factory "Dohhhp!" moment, but I would look for the correct VIN number stamp on top of the driver side frame rail just behind the rear wheel to confirm it's the original frame. You'll need an inspection mirror and a strong flashlight. (Ignore this last comment...Since your frame is at the body shop, without the body installed, you won't need the mirror. )

If the VIN is there and matches the car, the frame is original. It's still possible the car spent some time with a clever owner-inspired manual transmission conversion. The welding does appear to be the same quality as the rest of the factory welds, i.e. ugly but uniform and strong. You could check other areas where work would have to be done to make a conversion, e.g. closely examine the pedal support assembly for signs of amateurish technique like partially rounded hex nut corners, disturbed rust areas, etc. If the owner removed the entire pedal support, I guarantee you those lock nuts at the firewall will be buggered all to heck...that is, if you can even see them.

You have a decision as I said above. It's a tough call. Personally, I would probably leave the weld alone given the original style cross member and a matching VIN, and simply prep, prime and paint. It's possible the presence of the weld will cost you a few judging points, but if its a factory defect, I would want to keep it...weird, huh?

**Steve G.** · September 25, 2009, 07:43 PM

Re: Frame weld questions

I don't think its weird - if they were there originally, I'd like to leave them too. I forgot to mention, both frame stampings (left side behind rear wheel and left side middle of door) match serial number on VIN, motor and transmission.

I will check sides of frame rails for signs of extra welding. I don't remember seeing any. One thing I do remember is seeing the weld stitching and 'loops' of weld spatter between the stiches. I assume this was from the welder taking the weld rod on and off the seam? I plan to leave all the weld spatters. Also saw (if I remember the numbers right) a '-12' stamped on rear cross member and '-40' on the transmission cross member. Same font / size and I think they were inside a diamond shaped outline. Has anyone seen these stampings before?

Re: buggered up nuts at the pedal support - I removed those as part of resto in order to replace the firewall insulation. Hope I didn't bugger 'em up too much!

Steve

**Edward J.** · September 25, 2009, 08:12 PM

Re: Frame weld questions

Steve, I beleive that the manufacture logos and part no.s were stamped on the crossmembers.

**Chuck S.** · September 25, 2009, 11:01 PM

Re: Frame weld questions

Originally posted by Steve Geldart (49781)

I don't think its weird - if they were there originally, I'd like to leave them too. I forgot to mention, both frame stampings (left side behind rear wheel and left side middle of door) match serial number on VIN, motor and transmission.

I will check sides of frame rails for signs of extra welding. I don't remember seeing any. One thing I do remember is seeing the weld stitching and 'loops' of weld spatter between the stiches. I assume this was from the welder taking the weld rod on and off the seam? I plan to leave all the weld spatters. Also saw (if I remember the numbers right) a '-12' stamped on rear cross member and '-40' on the transmission cross member. Same font / size and I think they were inside a diamond shaped outline. Has anyone seen these stampings before?

Re: buggered up nuts at the pedal support - I removed those as part of resto in order to replace the firewall insulation. Hope I didn't bugger 'em up too much!

Steve

Yes, I would definitely keep the weld splatter.

My manual transmission frame was stamped at several locations with "-10" inside circles. I didn't consider these stamps to be exceptional to the car...I believe all frames have them.

Maybe you also noticed where the welder struck his arc way off then dragged his electrode over to the joint?...Good old American craftsmanship; with his hood down, he couldn't see where the joint was until he struck an arc.

Pedal support lock nuts...even if you buggered them, you won't have to worry about them being seen.

**Steve G.** · September 27, 2009, 09:46 PM

Re: Frame weld questions

I just confirmed there is no traces of 'extra' welding where a manual cross member would be. I agree, the weld on top of frame must have been a factory mess up and they cut / ground of the bracket. I will leave it as part of restoration and take the hit if I ever get the car judged. You were right, the stampings I was recalling were '-10' stamps on various portions of the frame, including the corner brackets. There were other dash number stampings on the separate cross members. The frame is now in epoxy primer and looks fantastic.

One more question. On underside of frame at corner where the frame rails go from straight runs under the doors to where they begin to turn inwards towards the engine, there appears to be some indentations, or wavyness. I see it on both sides, though the shapes are slightly different. I am wondering if that is part of the metal bending process from factory, or if its a result of my frame having previously been straightened from accident. Does anyone know if there should be indentations there, or better yet, do you have pictures of this area from a non-hit frame? I am thinking I have one shot to get the frame right before it goes for paint. Thanks for the help guys! Steve

**Kenny C.** · September 28, 2009, 05:36 PM

Re: Frame weld questions

Steve
These are shots from my 69 both left and right inside and bottom. I know for a fact that this has never been in an accident so what you see is how it was built.
Kenny

Attached Files

**Chuck S.** · September 28, 2009, 11:21 PM

Re: Frame weld questions

Originally posted by Steve Geldart (49781)

...One more question. On underside of frame at corner where the frame rails go from straight runs under the doors to where they begin to turn inwards towards the engine, there appears to be some indentations, or wavyness. I see it on both sides, though the shapes are slightly different. I am wondering if that is part of the metal bending process from factory, or if its a result of my frame having previously been straightened from accident...

The waviness is typical...it comes from bending formed steel channels into the shape of the side rail. Plate was formed into channels, then the channels bent to proper shape (one inside, one outside), then the halves welded together to form the side rail assembly. Since the bending process tries to compress or shorten the material in the flanges, and steel is not very compressible, the waviness is excess metal in the channel flange that has to go somewhere.

**Steve G.** · September 28, 2009, 11:33 PM

Re: Frame weld questions

Thanks guys. I assume that means mine is 'normal' and I will leave that area alone as well. Looks like it is ready for top coating (SEMs chassis black) on top of the epoxy primer and I am ready to start putting things together. I can't wait as to this point I have been taking apart, and cleaning, and painting... Steve

**Joe L.** · September 29, 2009, 12:00 AM

Re: Frame weld questions

Originally posted by Chuck Sangerhausen (20817)

I agree...that location is where the clutch cross shaft was welded on manual transmission car frames. One wing of the bracket would have been where there appears to be only tack welds.

The bracket appears to have been cut off close to the weld, but I suppose it could have been an aborted factory screwup. A minor cosmetic defect would probably not cause the frame to be rejected.

You could take the investigation further by close examination of the transmission support crossmember for "post factory modification". Manual transmission frames have the support crossmember permanently welded in position; automatic frames have a bolted crossmember necessary for removal of the larger transmission.

For judging, your best bet is to confirm the appearance of that area on auto transmission frames, and duplicate it. Note that frames are typically NOT continously welded along the top of the side rail...they are "stitch welded". If you find a normally configured transmission support crossmember underneath, it is likely this was a factory screwup IMO. In that case, you get to decide to keep it factory original or "restore" to expected configuration.

Chuck-----

It better not have been a case where a manual trans frame was installed for an automatic car (with the cross shaft bracket then removed). There's no way to remove and install a THM-400 automatic transmission in a car with a welded crossmember unless one removes the engine and transmission as a unit. It is ok to use an automatic frame, with the addition of the cross shaft bracket, for a manual trans car, though.

**Chuck S.** · September 29, 2009, 06:34 AM

Re: Frame weld questions

Originally posted by Joe Lucia (12484)

Chuck-----

It better not have been a case where a manual trans frame was installed for an automatic car (with the cross shaft bracket then removed). There's no way to remove and install a THM-400 automatic transmission in a car with a welded crossmember unless one removes the engine and transmission as a unit. It is ok to use an automatic frame, with the addition of the cross shaft bracket, for a manual trans car, though.

The poster has indicated the frame has a bolted cross-member, and is stamped with the correct VIN for the car. The transmission VIN also matches.

I believe the frame is original to the car, but it's possibile there was a temporary owner conversion to manual transmission, with a later reconversion for sale. A partially welded cross shaft bracket could fit with an amateur conversion; the bracket would seem plenty strong enough if only welded 2/3 of the way. As I told him, careful detective work should be employed to uncover other evidence if you can't develop a history from former owners.

**Harmon C.** · September 29, 2009, 10:24 AM

Re: Frame weld questions

Grind it smooth or leave it as is I doubt in that location it will be seen in judging and if it is a point would be a good choice for a deduction. Frame repairs are not easy to cover up in an aged frame.

Frame weld questions

Frame weld questions

Comment

Comment

Comment

Comment

Comment

Comment

Comment

Comment

Comment

Comment

Comment

Comment

Comment

Comment