Zinc phosphate in engine oil

[Donald W.]

Re: Zinc phosphate in engine oil

William M. I have bought Shell Rotella 10W30 at my local WAL-MART, but last time I checked the same store did not have it on the shelf that day. I was in the local O'Reilly Auto Part store couple of weeks ago and they had the 10W30 Shell Rotella on the shelf.
Have to hunt for what you want sometimes. I found only one auto parts store that stocks the ZEREX G5 antifreeze.

Jim, I've been looking for Zerex Antifreeze and so far have not found any chain or FLAPS that carries that brand. I want the green stuff for my cars, 54 and 65, even tho' there is some disagreement about needing the green stuff. Who did you find selling it. The Zerex web site gives no clues.

Don

[Stuart F.]

Re: Zinc phosphate in engine oil

Be careful with the Zerex. In 1975 I put it in my 63 replacing Prestone (I believe). There came about some chemical reaction of sorts and my nice original Aluminum radiator started leaking like a sieve, from many locations! I don't know if the Zerex was to blame, but when you get burned that bad you tend to put the finger of blame on the new item you introduced into the equation.

Stu Fox

[Duke W.]

Re: Zinc phosphate in engine oil

Today's Zerex G-05 is completely different than any antifreeze product available in 1975, and the industry consensus is that it is the best replacement for traditional "green" antifreeze for older cars that have a wide mix off cooling sytem materials - iron, aluminum, brass, solder. It will provide superior protection without precipating out deposits that will eventually clog tubes like green.

Most antifreeze products are ethylene glycol based, but the big difference is the corrosion inhibitor package. "Green" is known as an IAT and G-05 is an HOAT. And then there are OAT types like Dexcool.

More info in the archives and on the Web.

Duke

[Kenneth K.]

Re: Zinc phosphate in engine oil

There is an article in the August 2008 Corvette Fever called the "prefect stom" that reports an epidemic of flat-tappet cam failures in vintage engines they blame on the reduced levels of ZDDP in modern oils. One alternative the article mentions is to use Valvaline racing oil which has adequate levels of ZDDP. I just bought 5 qts of 20W 50 today for my 427/435 as I am not taking any chances.

[Stuart F.]

Re: Zinc phosphate in engine oil

Duke;

Thanks for clarifying the current state of Zerex for me. I'm still gun shy about their products, specially because they were of no help to me back then. I didn't expect them to pay for the radiator, but some sort of explanation would have been nice.

Man! I think they should give you the middle name "Google". You're like a walking encyclopedia. Tell me, do you have a couple of other computers going with ready access to your information files? I've only been retired since 11/2000 and I have trouble remembering even that date!

Stu Fox

[Duke W.]

Re: Zinc phosphate in engine oil

There is an article in the August 2008 Corvette Fever called the "prefect stom" that reports an epidemic of flat-tappet cam failures in vintage engines they blame on the reduced levels of ZDDP in modern oils. One alternative the article mentions is to use Valvaline racing oil which has adequate levels of ZDDP. I just bought 5 qts of 20W 50 today for my 427/435 as I am not taking any chances.

Geez - the next issue of The Corvette Restorer can't come out too soon!

Duke

[John D.]

Re: Zinc phosphate in engine oil

Brands are bunk! All you need to know is API CJ-4. There are scores of them.

Duke

I have been waiting for you to say this Duke. What took u so long?. You have no idea how many people I have told the same info to. Forget the brand of the oil and just check out the specs. Same as when I tell guys to use disc brake wheel bearing grease on FI drive cables. I tell them any brand will do. The light weight CJ-4 though seems to be disapearing around my parts. 15W-40 is all they have. John D.

[Duke W.]

Re: Zinc phosphate in engine oil

Duke;

Thanks for clarifying the current state of Zerex for me. I'm still gun shy about their products, specially because they were of no help to me back then. I didn't expect them to pay for the radiator, but some sort of explanation would have been nice.

Man! I think they should give you the middle name "Google". You're like a walking encyclopedia. Tell me, do you have a couple of other computers going with ready access to your information files? I've only been retired since 11/2000 and I have trouble remembering even that date!

Stu Fox

Way back when I think Prestone was a Dow Chemical brand, but they sold it decades ago, and I think Zerex was also owned by a big chemical company - back when they spronsored Roger Penske's "Zerex Special" in the early sixties, but it's now owned by Valvoline, and the Valvoline Web site has a pretty good rundown on all their antifreeze and other products. There are about six different ethylene glycol formulations - different corrosion inhibitor packages depending on vehicle manufacturer divided into three basic categories - IAT, OAT, and HOAT.

I just have one old 500 MHz PC running Widows 2000 Professional, (and I'm still on a dial up connection, but I keep promising everyone I will get high speed this year) and I've been keeping it busy, lately, editing music, making playlists, and burning CDs, for my new entertainment system

I got away from music for a while, but now that I'm getting tired of talking to all the Internet morons (present company excluded)..., but this DB has a lot of knowledgeable people and good discussions.

I'm also watching a lot of old movies that I can order on line from the Redondo Beach and LA County libraries along with audio CDs, then walk over and pick them up, and I still read at least one book a week.

One needs both physical and mental exercise/stimulation.

I guess I'm finally "retired" being as how my first SS payment gets ACHed in August. I think I drive one of my cars about every two weeks, and with the price of gas...

Two libraries, two grocery stores, my bank, and Pep Boys are all less than a mile from my house.

Life is good!

Duke

[Mark H.]

Re: Zinc phosphate in engine oil

Okay, so after reading the Restorer article last week, I'm on board with the ZDDP thing.

I know some folks don't want to mention brand names, but I've been looking for a good synthetic oil and have been unable to find any that have the CI, CJ-4 spec. listed on the bottle.

I've been using Mobil1 15W50 during the summer months in my '71 L48 (92k miles).

I'm gathering that you guys are not thrilled with the ZDDPlus offering as an additive to say Mobil1 10W30.

I know this is continually revisited lately, but please humor me.

Thanx

[Duke W.]

Re: Zinc phosphate in engine oil

I was at Walmart a couple of weeks ago and noticed they had one of the national brand's 5W-40 CJ-4 in stock. This is a "synthetic" because it is blended from Group II and III base stocks. That's why it has a 5W-40 viscosity rating.

Do some googling and get the spec sheets.

But, I don't think there is any value in the additional cost of 5W-40 unless you have to do cold starts below 10-15F, regularly or you want to run more than 5K miles between changes.

You can add a ZDDP additive product to a SM oil and get equal or greater concentration than an off the shelf CJ-4 oil. In fact one product I recently reviewed places the ZDDP concentration (at their recommended dosage to 4-6 quarts or oil) above the 0.14% P level that can enable some esoteric corrosion mechanisms. Do you want to jeopardaize your engine that way?

Buy why use an additive to SM oil in the first place? It costs more to get a suitable amount of ZDDP this way and you have to add another bottle of "stuff "for the oil change.

If you use CJ-4 (or CI-4) you need nothing else. Why do people have difficulty comprehending this?

Despite the fact that CJ-4 has a little less ZDDP than CI-4, CJ-4 out performs CI-4 in the API anti-wear tests. You will learn that in one of the article references.

You should read them.

Duke

[Mark H.]

Re: Zinc phosphate in engine oil

Thanx. I'll keep looking.

[Larry M.]

Re: Zinc phosphate in engine oil

Thanx. I'll keep looking.

Mark:

Shell Rotella is one company that manufactures 5W-40 fully synthetic oil with the CJ-4 rating. Sold in many locations throughout the USA by WALMART as well as auto parts stores. I have also seen in Advance, PEP Boys, and NAPA. If they do not have in-stock, get them to special order you a case. Shell gas stations may also carry in stock.

As Duke says, go on-line and checkout some of the other suppliers as well. I am certain you will find that many oil companies have similar products that meet the CJ-4 rating and are fully synthetic. I believe Castrol also sells the CJ-4 spec synthetic oil, but am not completely certain without additional research.

Larry

[Duke W.]

Re: Zinc phosphate in engine oil

Virtually all the national brands offer a 5W-40 "synthetic" CJ-4, which includes Chevron Delo and Mobil Delvac.

Duke

[Mark H.]

Re: Zinc phosphate in engine oil

Thanx Guys.

Duke, I enjoyed reading your article and have read a ton of the stuff listed, and others including some of the oil forums. Hours really. Don't know why I'm obsessing over this.

I understand. Just having a hard time locating said products.

Been to AA, PB and NAPA locally and no CJ-4 to be found. Next stop WM I guess.

Any thoughts on the CASTROL SYNTEC 20W-50 that they're marketing for classic cars?

Thanx for your time,

Mark

http://www.castrol.com/castrol/genericarticle.do?categoryId=82915470&contentId=7032644

[Duke W.]

Re: Zinc phosphate in engine oil

It may be okay, but unless you can find a spec sheet that specifically states the P analysis who knows.

SM oils in winter viscosity grades above 10W have no P limitation, but this is no guarantee of a higher P analysis than the .08% limitation of SM oils in winter grades of 10W and lower.

I am always highly skeptical of "marketing information" and try to seek out real engineering/scientific information before I commit to a product.

I find it hard to believe that you can't find CJ-4 or CI-4 at all the stores you visited. Did you look for the "telltale signs" on the front label, and then read the back label to verify the primary API service category? Most auto parts store employees will not understand "CJ-4". They may understand "diesel engine oil."

I find at least one national or house brand C-category oil at every auto parts store I visit, plus Walmart and Costco. At my local Walmart the C-category oil is in a different section than the S-categroy oil.

A question for everyone else. I have not been to a NAPA store lately. Do they have a house brand C-category, or do they just sell the national brand C-category oils?

Duke