C2 Original Trailing Arm Toe Shim Question

[Mark F.]

Re: C2 Original Trailering Arm Toe Shim Question

Can you provide more detail on the plant front toe adjustment at the end of the assembly line.

Was someone in the driver's seat holding the steering wheel straight? < No. After the driver drove the car on top of the pit (at break-neck speed I might add) he jumped out and went back to the car next in line after placing a steering wheel lock of some sort - presumably while it was clocked at the 12 O'clock position. Of course, being down in the pit, I couldn't see many examples of this, but I do recall being incredibly alert at the end of the line where drive off took place so I wouldn't get hit. Cars were occasionally wrecked inside the plant in that area and also driving out to the parking yard.

I assume you set each side separately, < Yes so that, assuming someone was holding the steering wheel straight, the steering wheel would be straight driving down a straight road with no camber. < There were two sets of double rollers which when activated rotated the front tires (it was 40+ years ago and I can't remember at what speed - but, it was not 60 mph). I don't remember anything about camber adjustments...but I don't think (or remember ??) them being done in the toe-in pit

Also, can you describe what equipment was used to make the actual toe measurements. Mirrors? Light beams? Lasers? Was anything attached to the wheels?< Yes - rollers touched and spun the tires - no lasers - no light beams - no mirrors - I don't even think there were even electronic sensors. The guy would do the driver's side first (10 seconds at the most); I'd have to get out of his way quickly; and then he did the passenger side. This was at Ford Assembly Plants and most production at that time was between 50 to 60 cars per hour IIRC. It seemed to me the large dial indicators (one on the right side and another on the left) were mechanically connected to the inward/outward movement of the fixture assembly holding the rollers - thus transferring the measurements mechanically to the dial indicator. Noland has a picture of the St. Louis Toe-in pit somewhere (can't find it right now) and the concept was the same as what I saw.

The reason I ask is I have been doing my own alignments for over 40 years because even though modern field alignment equipment is excellent, the operators rarely understood the involved geometry and always wanted to set everything at their "book" recommendations, not my requirements, which were for more aggressive driving, like maximum negative camber and positive caster, equal on both sides, within the range of adjustment.

Even though front toe should be the easiest thing to do it was always a pain. Since I could only measure total front toe I had to keep the steering wheel straight, but it always cocked off center as I adjusted the tie rods. Having a helper hold the wheel straight helped, but it was usually still slightly cocked off center on the test drive, so I had to go back down under and tweak (maybe 1/8 turn) one or both tie rods to straighten the wheel while keeping total toe and my required range, and sometimes it took two or even three tries to get it right because I am fanatic about having the steering wheel straight when driving in a straight line. I can only imagine what a pain that must have been. My mechanic agreed to use his alignment equipment (lasers) when I had my Trailing arms rebuilt by Bair's 20+ years ago; BUT he said he would not do the shims ! I wish I had seen this post (including Leif and Jim's responses) back then because I was using original style - all non-slotted shims. So, I set the 1st try at what I had when I tore it apart - went to his shop; he gave me the measurements; I'd come back and do the math; re-shim (what PITA that is with the body on the car !); went back the 2nd time - it was almost there, but not perfect; so I did it again and on the 3rd try we got it. He completed the front end alignment and I took it out on the highway. On a nice long stretch, I kept it at 60 mph and left go of the steering wheel and it went straight as an arrow ! It was a hell of a lot of work, but I was really pleased. It handles great on our twisty western PA. roads, too...you can power into curves - feel the G's and not be worried at all unless the cops are near by.

At some point I realized that at least on my cars if the tie rod length the same on both tie rods as close as I could measure, the steering wheel would be almost straight, but it still usually took at least one tweak for me to be satisfied.

Duke

Duke, see in-line responses above...

[Jack M.]

Re: C2 Original Trailering Arm Toe Shim Question

Here are a couple C2 alignment pit images from St Louis... THANX to JohnZ and Larry Galloway:

1963 Front End Alignment - February 9, 1963 (Larry Galloway)-800.jpg

1966 Front End Alignment (JohnZ) 800x600.jpg

1963 Front End Alignment (JohnZ) 800a.jpg
1963 Front End Alignment (JohnZ) 800b.jpg

[Mark F.]

Re: C2 Original Trailering Arm Toe Shim Question

Here are a couple C2 alignment pit images from St Louis... THANX to JohnZ and Larry Galloway:

Hey Jack,

Way to go ! I knew you'd have them - thank you !

Different setups - but same concept.

Your 2nd shot ('66 BB) is much closer to what I remember.

Your 3rd shot ('63 w/o the barbecue grills ?) doesn't make a lot of sense to me:

• dial indicators are side by side in the center of the pit facing forward; look to be 1/4th the size of the dials I remember; plus where does the guy stand to adjust the tie rods and be able to look at the indicators ? All that instrumentation looks to be blocking tie rod adjustment nuts/sleeves above. If he's behind all that contraption - how does he see the indicators - unless there's a second set of dials aft of the ones in the shot ? again - doesn't make sense to me.
• Lots of buttons and lights on the control panel there, too - don't remember anything that complicated in ones I was in
• The front end of the pits I was in were not as long out front of the car as shown in your 2nd shot. It looks much more roomier...not a good job to have if you're claustrophobic

[Jack M.]

Re: C2 Original Trailering Arm Toe Shim Question

Mark- Perhaps there may have been a couple different companies supplying the automotive industry with alignment equipment.
For ease of tech servicing of the equipment... did this particular brand have the ability to be flipped/rotated out of the alignment pit?
(seemz they would also have to rotate the gauges, in order to have the car drive off)

This wider photo (from Larry) shows someone speaking to a larger group... as there was no reason to have someone in the passenger seat.
Perhaps the gauges were rotated up, for the guests to see how the readings changed, as someone in the pit made adjustments.
All just wild speculation on my part... as usual, your mileage may vary.

1963 Front End Alignment - February 9, 1963 (Larry Galloway) - IMG_20200506_0005-800.jpg

[Mark F.]

Re: C2 Original Trailering Arm Toe Shim Question

Mark- Perhaps there may have been a couple different companies supplying the automotive industry with alignment equipment. < Agreed. Plus the ones I saw were 10+ years later and all at non-GM facilities...
For ease of tech servicing of the equipment... did this particular brand have the ability to be flipped/rotated out of the alignment pit?
(seemz they would also have to rotate the gauges, in order to have the car drive off) < Possibly, but that would have been another potential point of breakdown and consequent line stoppage if the "rotate out of the way" thingy broke, or got stuck...cardinal sin in assembly plants

This wider photo (from Larry) shows someone speaking to a larger group... as there was no reason to have someone in the passenger seat.< I think the much slower production rate at St. Louis (no more than 10 per hour or so ??) would have allowed the same driver to stay in the car from roll test thru toe-in. My recollection (although I was concentrating on other things doing my job) for ones I saw at a higher production rate (50 to 60 per hour or so) had a driver from the final line startup position to the roll test and after roll testing was done, he then drove the car to the pit. He locked the steering wheel and got out to get to the next car coming off the line (sometimes running to get there) so he could get it started and out of the way. I think another driver got in the car at the toe-in pit and drove it off the pit after alignment was completed. I had no reason to be any farther down the line, so that driver may have also driven it out of the building into the parking/staging area - dunno - speculation on my part...

Perhaps the gauges were rotated up, for the guests to see how the readings changed, as someone in the pit made adjustments.
All just wild speculation on my part... as usual, your mileage may vary.

Jack,

Thanks for the shots and observations !
and see in-line responses above

Also, as followup to the caster/camber alignment in my response to Duke's post, here's what JZ had to say about that (it happened on the Frame Upside Down line):

FUD station number 7: Apply front hub caster/camber fixtures to upper and lower ball stud extensions, cycle tool to green lights, stuff-shim resulting gaps at upper control arm shaft-to-frame studs, and final-torque upper control arm shaft attaching nuts and lower control arm shaft end retainer bolts.

[Jack M.]

Re: C2 Original Trailering Arm Toe Shim Question

Mark- THANX for all your input and job experiences... they are quite valuable.

And so my previous remarks are a little clearer:
I believe the gauges were typically in the lower pit position, and rarely rotated up (for a tech/tour demo/etc).
As for the person sitting in the passenger seat, their coat leads me to believe they were part of the tour.