Ignition problem

[George W.]

1959 with 327 block, 097 Duntov solid cam, '59 fuel injection unit.

Was idling poorly, found it was running on cylinders 3, 5, 7 only.

Removed and replaced flooded plugs after checking compression and valve lash (all good--180 to 185--lash at 12 Intake, 18 Exhaust-- cold), installed new points, checked resistance on coil, pulled nozzle feeds and confirmed good fuel flow through all.

Restarted engine and now firing on 4, 6, 8 only.

Going to try another distributor next---all I have to use as a substitute is a 1111063 unit which should work at idle.

Any thoughts?
Thanks,
George
210 748 4693

[Ken A.]

Re: Ignition problem

Bad cap and/or rotor

[Stephen C.]

Re: Ignition problem

if not distributor check timing chain & gear.

[Gene M.]

Re: Ignition problem

Check condenser, wire lead to coil, plug and coil wires, in addition to Ken's suggestion.

[George W.]

Re: Ignition problem

New cap, rotor, points, condenser, plugs, plug wires, coil, good ground(s), good connections everywhere including ground in distributor.
Timing chain and gear fine (as stated, just adjusted valve lash using the #1 TDC and #6 TDC system, and all valves were in the proper position at the proper time).

Any reason to not use the "063" distributor as a test at idle?

G.

[Gene M.]

Re: Ignition problem

George,
Did you switch anything from odd bank to even bank? Before you go changing distributor, check for spark at each plug. Check it at plugs not distributor cap.

[Michael W.]

Re: Ignition problem

Restarted engine and now firing on 4, 6, 8 only.

How did you determine it's not firing on the other cylinders? Do they all fire at higher RPM?

[George W.]

Re: Ignition problem

George,
Did you switch anything from odd bank to even bank? Before you go changing distributor, check for spark at each plug. Check it at plugs not distributor cap.

Will do,
Thank you

[Duke W.]

Re: Ignition problem

(as stated, just adjusted valve lash using the #1 TDC and #6 TDC system, and all valves were in the proper position at the proper time).

That could be part of the problem. The #1 and #6 method is ONLY VALID FOR HYDRAULIC LIFTER CAMS. At either position, some of the eight valve lifters are on the clearance ramps with any mechanical lifter cam, so the lash on these is too loose.

Google the Hinckley Williams valve adjustment paper and you want the latest revision, dated Sept. 2008. With a Duntov cam you have the option of adjusting the valves on each cylinder at TDC of the compression stroke or using the indexing procedure that must be used for all other mechanical lifter camshafts.

Duke

[John D.]

Re: Ignition problem

George, As mentioned to you there is nothing is the FI unit that would cause this problem. Now dirt could be an issue but even if you had a dirt problem the FI unit would not cause your complaint.
Has to be issues with the 914 distributor. Now to figure out what could be the problem with the dual point distributor.
Hows the cap and rotor. Have you had the distributor cap off? How are the points. Are they worn real bad. Cam lob/points issue?
Wiring problem. Is jumper wire OK. Points both opening and closing. Do you have a dwell meter. If not how about an old fashion point adjustment. Feeler gauge method.
Like I said give the distributor to Don Baker and give the 063 distributor a try.

An 063 FI distributor was used in early 063. According to my old friends at Rochester Products (all gone) that distributor was a screw up. Was a mistake that they quickly fixed. The 063 distributor is a 63 distributor set up for the 097 cam. Not the 30-30 cam. The only thing 30-30 on that distributor is the vacuum advance. The weights, springs, distributor cam, and maybe the football on top of the shaft (I forgot) is different.
The next FI distributor is the 070. Set up for the 30-30 cam.
If you want your early 64 to not be so sluggish update the '063 with 070 parts. Short cut is at least change the weights and springs.
George I think you have ignition point/wiring problems withe the '914. Don't replace it with electronic stuff on the market. Don can make it scream with points. If you insist then have him put in the good one wire set up.
You have an obvious wiring short ??? John

[George W.]

Re: Ignition problem

That could be part of the problem. The #1 and #6 method is ONLY VALID FOR HYDRAULIC LIFTER CAMS. At either position, some of the eight valve lifters are on the clearance ramps with any mechanical lifter cam, so the lash on these is too loose.

Google the Hinckley Williams valve adjustment paper and you want the latest revision, dated Sept. 2008. With a Duntov cam you have the option of adjusting the valves on each cylinder at TDC of the compression stroke or using the indexing procedure that must be used for all other mechanical lifter camshafts.

Duke

Thank you for this information; I will get the Hinckley Williams Paper and follow instructions. This is the 097 cam, if that makes a difference

I have switched out distributors and am seeing the same symptoms.

As a re-cap, new points, condenser, cap, rotor, plugs, plug wires, coil, good connections/grounds.

I gave two CSV's that I have witched out. With 15 inches vacuum applied to either, one bleeds down in 15 sec; the other in 48 sec. Engine runs the same with either CSV.

If engine is revved to 2500 RPM. I get fuel to all cylinders and have a steady 14 inches of vacuum (dwell at 30).

At lower idle (1200) vacuum is 8 inches---this is when only one side (bank) gets fuel. If I manually apply vacuum to the main diaphragm, I get fuel to both banks.

It seems that there is a vacuum/flow problem?
(oh, installed a new main diaphragm/gasket just in case).

[George W.]

Re: Ignition problem

John D,
I think I answered all of your questions in my response to Duke.
I will follow up on the 063 upgrade when I need that dist.
Thank you,
G

[Duke W.]

Re: Ignition problem

Your manifold vacuum numbers are out of whack. A Duntov cam should pull about 12" at 900, and close to 20" at 2500. The CSVs are leaking, but you may have other vacuum leaks.

Another possibility is that it might not really have a Duntov cam. A mechanical lifter cam that is designed with taller clerance ramps will definitely show low vacuum if adjusted to Duntov specs.

I would help if you would provide some background, like how long the problem has been occuring and any work on the engine about that time. Also, how do you know it has a Duntov cam. Did you have the engine rebuilt? Do you have receipts for installed parts with the manufacturer/part number. Don't spare any electrons.

Duke

[George W.]

Re: Ignition problem

Your manifold vacuum numbers are out of whack. A Duntov cam should pull about 12" at 900, and close to 20" at 2500. The CSVs are leaking, but you may have other vacuum leaks.

Another possibility is that it might not really have a Duntov cam. A mechanical lifter cam that is designed with taller clerance ramps will definitely show low vacuum if adjusted to Duntov specs.

I would help if you would provide some background, like how long the problem has been occuring and any work on the engine about that time. Also, how do you know it has a Duntov cam. Did you have the engine rebuilt? Do you have receipts for installed parts with the manufacturer/part number. Don't spare any electrons.

Duke

Actually, I cannot be sure what cam is in this engine.
I can tell you that this engine came with my '60 FI car 16 years ago (fitted with a '60 unit) and it always ran great, and was lashed at 097 specs (hot, running) all the years I owned).

Engine has not been rebuilt since my ownership, still has great compression. Likely less than 3,000 miles in my ownership. Have no history before 1999

Where/how do I find other vacuum leaks? Or, what if I lash at 30 30 specs to see if vacuum improves?

Thanks again,
G.

[Duke W.]

Re: Ignition problem

A propane torch (NOT LIGHTED) can be used to detect vacuum leaks. Vacuum leaks cause a lean condition, which results in a low, rough idle, and if the propane is sucked into the leak, idle speed will improve and smooth out.

The first thing you should do is proplerly lash the cam to Duntov specs and install a leak free CSV. See what that does and go from there.

Don't try different cam lash specs. If you want to verify the installed cam, remove at least one inlet and exhaust rocker arm. Then install a dial indicator on the tip of the pushrods, rotate the engine until the dial indicator is at the lowest reading, reset the scale to zero, then rotate the engine two times and record the highest indicator reading and compare to lobe lift specs in the service manual. The Duntov nominal lobe lift is .2625/.2665".

Duke