Chassis black on '63 rear axle and components

[Bob J.]

Re: Chassis black on '63 rear axle and components

Let's get back to the idea of suggesting and forwarding those suggestions to the 63-64 Team Leader and the National Team Leader.

JR

Thanks, we've tried that route and it doesn't work.
Isn't about top flight or ribbons to me.
Its about not changing original cars to unoriginal cars to comply with a jg or restoring cars to unoriginal cars to comply with false information..
The old timers like yourself and I won't be here forever saying that is not the way it was.

[Edward J.]

Re: Chassis black on '63 rear axle and components

I agree that it is NOT fair to the owners and not only on restored cars. In my case the 63 I had a Charlotte was a Bowtie Sign Off Car. I was told that not only was it incorrect but that it would greatly effect the Bowtie/Star in the Chassis section because even though the parts were correct and original to the car, All of those pieces in the rear suspension not only had what was left of blackout on them which I was told was not correct, but they could have been taken off and painted and then reinstalled which kills it for the Star in that area. Ill also add that even with the chassis judges and team leader saying that it was still so close in that section that they waited and reviewed it the next morning, it still did not get a star. I can only wonder that if the car would have got the benefit of the doubt in regards to the rear suspension blackout being original, would the outcome have been different. With this being said, overall I had a great experience in Charlotte and am thrilled with my Top Flight. Also, Mike M did judge my car in Charlotte, and I thought he was right on in his section, but it was in the Mechanical Section and the Chassis judges I had did not share his and my opinion on the rear suspension blackout.

Also, we all know that 63's have so many things that changed throughout the year so I am not saying that my car 100% for sure was this way as I didn't buy it new. The thing is, when you look at the whole area in general and so many pieces are consistent with each other in the way the finish or what is left of it looks, and the pieces are original and correct, in an area that has proof that some original cars were that way, how can you not get the benefit of the doubt in that case.

Jeff, If I do the CDCIF, on front and rear suspension correctly 20% of each item would be about 10pts Is this about what you received? I Still see a lot of judging going the old way a point here and point there. and does not wind up the same as CDCIF.

[Loren L.]

Re: Chassis black on '63 rear axle and components

I find my wanting to return to the mid-90s for judging criteria - you know the one that EVERYONE knew was wrong in about 300 places, but the good judges had accumulated enough notes in the margin and red-line markouts of no-nos. Unfortunately, all those have been thrown away. But you remember, this is the class of the "MYSTERY MANUAL" (3rd? 4th?) that came out and changed the format layout so that it did not CONFORM to the judging sheets. Allegedly NCRS could never find the source. Apparently Gary M found a printer that works for free and the checkbook stubs for that month were lost. But after 10+ years of NEEDING revision, we got one. It and it's now two(?) successors are getting to the point of being embarrassing. Maybe 10 years of fighting for black '63 shocks was worth it.
But I'm glad I read this thread - Yup, saved another $50! Maybe I'll go to Denver and watch the "discussions" in the '63/'64 area.

[Jaime G.]

Re: Chassis black on '63 rear axle and components

I find my wanting to return to the mid-90s for judging criteria - you know the one that EVERYONE knew was wrong in about 300 places, but the good judges had accumulated enough notes in the margin and red-line markouts of no-nos. Unfortunately, all those have been thrown away. But you remember, this is the class of the "MYSTERY MANUAL" (3rd? 4th?) that came out and changed the format layout so that it did not CONFORM to the judging sheets. Allegedly NCRS could never find the source. Apparently Gary M found a printer that works for free and the checkbook stubs for that month were lost. But after 10+ years of NEEDING revision, we got one. It and it's now two(?) successors are getting to the point of being embarrassing. Maybe 10 years of fighting for black '63 shocks was worth it.
But I'm glad I read this thread - Yup, saved another $50! Maybe I'll go to Denver and watch the "discussions" in the '63/'64 area.

Loren, come to Denver to share stories.
Its always good to see you.
I am restoring a 63 now and the chassis will be prepared per the 5th edition manual not the 6th.
I have seen enough original unrestored 63's and 64's to know the difference.
I am baffled by the 6th edition manual but so it is.

[Jeff M.]

Re: Chassis black on '63 rear axle and components

Edward, ill have to look back at my judging sheets but I'm thinking it was a total of around 8 points as far as flight judging. It wouldn't have made any difference there, thank goodness, but I feel it did on the star for that catagory during Bowtie Signoff. And again, as I stated, I was thrilled to Top Flight at the regional with an unrestored car and I was very pleased overall with all of the judges and with the event as a whole, I just felt that issue could have changed the chassis to having a star with how on the fence the team leader was about it. The issue of blackout or not being correct effected quite a few pieces in that area from being original and correct or being not correct and maybe disassembled and reassembled in their minds. Jeff

[Steve M.]

Re: Chassis black on '63 rear axle and components

Since the TL states he won't make a change without proof, why not ask to see what convinced him?

[Mark D.]

Re: Chassis black on '63 rear axle and components

Isn't about top flight...Its about not changing original cars to unoriginal cars to comply with a jg...

Amen, JMB!

[Bob J.]

Re: Chassis black on '63 rear axle and components

Since the TL states he won't make a change without proof, why not ask to see what convinced him?

Steve,
you can try that.
If you like, I can supply a list of other errors that Hanson and others found in the latest edition.
Over 100 errors if I remember correctly, but I'd need to email a few former members to be sure.
One more thing, don't expect to email the 63-64 TL, he does not provide an email address,he likes for you to send him a stamped self addressed envelope for your reply.
You can draw your own conclusions about that.

[Michael B.]

Re: Chassis black on '63 rear axle and components

Thank you all, for your input on this subject. I have been in contact with Dave Brigham and he will be addressing this. I have suggested to him that since, per some of the responses to this thread, some judges are already using both Edition 5 and Edition thus allowing either no paint or black paint as OK, that he consider allowing us to do this until this issue is brought to conclusion.

[Loren L.]

Re: Chassis black on '63 rear axle and components

Ah yes, the old "We're going to do that on the second Monday of this week" promise. Good effort, Mike.

[Patrick T.]

Re: Chassis black on '63 rear axle and components

Isn't there a statute of limitations on how long a Team Leader can be in office? If not, there should be. JMO

[Bob J.]

Re: Chassis black on '63 rear axle and components

Isn't there a statute of limitations on how long a Team Leader can be in office? If not, there should be. JMO

Patrick,
thats about 95% of the problem. Not a problem for any of other years but 63-64 doesn't seem to get the same benefit as far as new leader/new ideas.
At present,you don't rock the boat if you want to be picked as judge at anything higher than chapter meets unless your on the favorite list.
If you don't fall inline you probably will never get on that list or even get a thank you for TRYING to fix errors in the jg under the current leader regardless how many hours you spent or how much proof you provided. I know all about that, and so do many other who tried to help fix errors.


In the early 80s I helped with Loren, Brian Futo, Eric Gill on the pink cover 63-64 judging manual, under the leadership of A.R. Eddie Hammer-Huber as TL with Bill Clupper as National Judging Chairman.
I submitted my name to the current TL help when a newer 63-64 JG manual was being revised, I'm sure it was prior 1988.....that makes about 27 years with the same leader.
It really is a shame that nobody can get a chance filling that position..........then we wonder why members drop out.
Time to face the facts, there is limited opportunity in 63-64 if you care to judge or care to be a team leader.

[Don H.]

Re: Chassis black on '63 rear axle and components

Gentleman
can we drop a lid on the venting? Your frustrations are shared by many and are well documented on the TDB. It sounds like Mr. Brigham said he will address the issue OP raised. Maybe something will come of it. Thank you.



add: It's a great club Mark, that does some great things for the classic corvette hobby and all of us who care to participate. Not a perfect club, but then, is there any such thing? Discussion of judging issues fits the parameters of the tech board, and respectful discussion of judging philosophies that includes criticism should be acceptable, so long as it remains respectful.

[Mark D.]

Re: Chassis black on '63 rear axle and components

Don,

it is appreciated the moderators have allowed this discussion to go as long as it has. In the past, it wouldn't have. I think it is healthy these views have been allowed some traction. Even though this is a tech board, it is still an excellent (or, at least, productive) place to raise such topics. It is especially so, when the membership feels that such concerns fall on deaf ears when using established channels.

Thanks again,

Mark

[Michael G.]

Re: Chassis black on '63 rear axle and components

Mark, as the club ages, there seem to be more and more deaf (or semi-deaf) ears around here for things to fall on...