Hard number for point deduction for Vintage Air A/C

[Don H.]

Re: Hard number for point deduction for Vintage Air A/C

Frankie,
on options added there are two different conditions. If one adds an apparent factory option such as Side exhaust, Pwr Steer or Pwr Brakes, and it is detected as an owner (or dealer) added option, all parts of it take a full deduct. However if one adds a non-factory option such as Vintage air, pass side view mirror, luggage rack, trailer hitch, etc, no aspect of the added item is judged. Rather the affected body part [may, depending on knowledge of the judges] takes a small hit for the alteration to original condition such as missing heater, altered console side panels, holes in dash or core support, installation of accessory brackets, holes in door or bumpers, etc. Most such hits are small but in the case of added air can be more extensive as John pointed out above. Still, the club makes accommodation for owners of cars with such mods by offering driving mile points as well as the 10 point bonus. Get your car out on the judging field!

[John S.]

Re: Hard number for point deduction for Vintage Air A/C

Well said Don!

[Chuck G.]

Re: Hard number for point deduction for Vintage Air A/C

Frank:

One of our local Citrus County guys has had his 67 judged a number of times at Florida Chapter meets and at the Florida Regional in Kissimmee. His car has added Vintage Air. He has gotten TF awards every time, scoring in the 95%--96% range.

He had a personal goal to score a 97% or above WITH the Vintage Air installed. At the Florida Chapter meet this past Saturday in Crystal River, he scored a 97.97%, so he achieved his goal. He's going to take the car to Lakeland in January to see if he can score a 97% or above at a Regional.

Call me or EMail me privately, and I'll put you two in touch. He's a good friend of our mutual buddy, Plasticman too.

Don Hooper nailed the judging philosophy pertaining to VA in Post # 16.

Chuck

[Bruce D.]

Re: Hard number for point deduction for Vintage Air A/C

Frank: I have the same problem/question that I have been trying to quantify. John Seeley tried to be specific with you and I will try to do the same but with more details. Not sure this is all you with get hit with, but here are my thoughts..
Mechanical: idler assembly 1/1, wire harness 2/2, alternator mounting 5/2, heater box 4/3, glove box 1/1, a/c vent mounting 1/1, side trim panels 3/3. This would be 30 points, and is only my opinion. My chapter judging did not include all of this. Chapter judging will only be as good as the judges knowledge (remember chapter judging emphasizes owner and judging training). Different judges will surely have a few different thoughts, but this should be close.

[Frank D.]

Re: Hard number for point deduction for Vintage Air A/C

Yes - that is a more extensive assessment and what I thought you might encounter at a National. I think that 30+/- 2 or 3 points is prob real close.

[Page C.]

Re: Hard number for point deduction for Vintage Air A/C

If the car was not an original air conditioned car why wouldn't is be declared an added on option under the Judging Reference Manual? Section 4 Standard Deduction Guidelines, Purpose & Use. page 32 #9 Added or Delete Options. This would mean a full deduction of all effective parts on originality and condition.

[Tracy C.]

Re: Hard number for point deduction for Vintage Air A/C

If the car was not an original air conditioned car why wouldn't is be declared an added on option under the Judging Reference Manual? Section 4 Standard Deduction Guidelines, Purpose & Use. page 32 #9 Added or Delete Options. This would mean a full deduction of all effective parts on originality and condition.

A vintage air system is an obvious ad-on. No attempt is made to make it appear original. Therefore is can be treated as an added luggage rack or passenger side mirror. However, if A/C is added using period correct OEM parts, then we consider that an "added option" and the full deduction rules apply.

tc

[Page C.]

Re: Hard number for point deduction for Vintage Air A/C

Tracy please reference the section in the Judging Reference Manual that you are using for this determination that the add on options are exempt from the JRM if they do it using non GM parts. There is no sentence that I see in that section that says the JRM only applies if they are trying to make it appear original.
Section 4 #14 GM-Approved Dealer-Installed Accessories covers the luggage rack, right-hand rearview mirror. The point deduction in that section is for holes in the fiberglass. Vintage Air is not a GM-Approved Dealer-Installed Accessory.

[Gary B.]

Re: Hard number for point deduction for Vintage Air A/C

Page,

Regarding Tracy's point, I have the 6th edition of the JRM, which I'm guessing has been revised at least once since I bought it some years ago, but section 14 says "... addition or deletion of any regular production vehicle option...". I assume that "regular production vehicle option" phrase is meant to limit it to GM parts, not things like Vintage Air. I have to admit, the reason for a distinction between OEM and non-OEM parts baffles me.

Gary


Gary

[Frank D.]

Re: Hard number for point deduction for Vintage Air A/C

Well - judging points or not I'm sure not pulling the A/C out.

I was skeptical about adding this to my split window - it was the right decision. I drove around Orlando heat (93+ degrees) yesterday on the turnpike and in stop and go traffic. After 20 minutes I had to turn the temp and blower DOWN; after another 15 minutes I turned it down AGAIN; the THIRD time I turned it down the temp knob was at just over 3/4 full cold and the fan was at half-speed; very comfortable. Amazing.

Car's coolant temp never got over 170*.

The following things helped a lot:

1) insulated heavily at the roof and interior firewall
2) upgraded stock alternator internally to 70 amps
3) added larger stock-looking fan and heavy-duty fan clutch (NO electronic 'pusher' fan)
4) tinted rear windows with ceramic "see through" tint
5) put new seals in the fresh air vent

If you are "on the fence" about adding it you should really consider the upgrade!

The picture is before I started turning the system lower...it got down to 38* once but I wasn't quick enough to snap the picture...

[Joe R.]

Re: Hard number for point deduction for Vintage Air A/C

Hi Frank,

That sounds like a very successful and satisfying mod. Most of us like the creature comforts and plenty of em! Maybe you did your homework already and just didn't mention it, but I would be careful with putting a 70 A alternator on a car that was never designed for that. Your wiring may not be able to handle the extra current, which can lead to a fire if not fused properly. I just don't want to see you or someone else run into trouble because of this!

Joe

[Tracy C.]

Re: Hard number for point deduction for Vintage Air A/C

Page,

I will look for supporting info tonight. Instead of a luggage rack, I should have used an added trailer hitch as a comparison. Neither vintage A/C or the trailer hitch were available as GM accessories for Corvette from dealers back in the day.

Edit:

Adding Vintage A/C is no different than any other owner inspired modification. Ignore the additional parts and judge the affect to the car. (added holes, moved or removed components etc.)

However Comma

If the car is determined to be an originally equipped A/C car, full deductions can be made to the Vintage A/C components under the "significantly dissimilar" clause in the last paragraph of Section 4 Paragraph 13 (pg 34)

Hope this helps clarify,

tc

[Frank D.]

Re: Hard number for point deduction for Vintage Air A/C

I wish it were one of the rare '63 factory A/C cars. It absolutely is not.
As far as the 70 amp alternator upgrade. Are you saying the wiring was upgraded in '63 for factory A/C cars with the more powerful 63 amp (IIRC) alternator ?

I've not seen that in the AIM or other print. The harnesses are new BTW.