327 & 427 for Same Car 194377S117307

[Tracy C.]

Re: 327 & 427 for Same Car 194377S117307

Sounds like you've been reading the CF version of judging rules. With a missing or non-original trim tag, judging simply stops as the configuration of the car as built cannot be determined. Can't judge the paint colour accuracy if you don't know what colour the car is supposed to be. .......

Sorry Mike, but you are wrong on this. A car with a non original Trim tag will be branded as counterfeit. I don't know how it could ever recover from this. See page 22 & 23 of the CJRM rev8. for details.

[Don H.]

Re: 327 & 427 for Same Car 194377S117307

That is exactly the point I am trying to make. If they can say the engine numbers are TFP, why can't they also say the paint color is TFP even if the tag is a repro. If you make a 350 Vette into a 427 but the numbers look correct or even if they don't look correct judging continues.

Its a problem of philosophy not being consistent all across the board.

I disagree that it is a problem. If you accept that a replaced or restored engine, that appears to match up to the car that it is in, is a common situation in 50 year old cars then you accept replaced or restored engines, like you accept restored all other aspects of these cars (except Trim tags). Reproduction or replaced Trim tags are not a common situation. I would say they are quite rare. It may be imperfect logic but Trim tags are not the same as engines or any other part and they get treated differently. If an owner cannot accept that there is a difference, that owner will probably not find judging in the NCRS system to be an enjoyable activity. The vast majority of members involved in judging of their cars do seem to accept the difference without any problem. The system seems to work for a great majority of cars and their owners, imperfect though it may be.

[Michael W.]

Re: 327 & 427 for Same Car 194377S117307

Michael,
I post this for thought provoking discussion purposes only.

If in the case of a non original trim tag “judging simply stops as the configuration of the car as built cannot be determined”, how can judging continue if a stamp pad is determined as not TFP?
How can the engine ‘bolt on’ parts be judged if one doesn’t know what HP or accessories that engine was born with?

Good point and it's been raised before but without the NCRS heading further down the slippery slope of 'authentification' I don't know else it could be fixed. For the same reasons that original engines get separated from their cars, some also lost their trim tags. It's only by an 11th hour miracle that I recouped the original trim tag and tank sticker for mine.

Do we want to fully get into the business of authentification?

Sorry Mike, but you are wrong on this. A car with a non original Trim tag will be branded as counterfeit. I don't know how it could ever recover from this. See page 22 & 23 of the CJRM rev8. for details.

I don't have my docs in front of me but I believe there is a process to remove the branding if the original trim tag reappears. Correct me if I am confused on this point please.

[Roy S.]

[Edward C.]

Re: 327 & 427 for Same Car 194377S117307

I disagree that it is a problem. If you accept that a replaced or restored engine, that appears to match up to the car that it is in, is a common situation in 50 year old cars then you accept replaced or restored engines, like you accept restored all other aspects of these cars (except Trim tags). Reproduction or replaced Trim tags are not a common situation. I would say they are quite rare. It may be imperfect logic but Trim tags are not the same as engines or any other part and they get treated differently. If an owner cannot accept that there is a difference, that owner will probably not find judging in the NCRS system to be an enjoyable activity. The vast majority of members involved in judging of their cars do seem to accept the difference without any problem. The system seems to work for a great majority of cars and their owners, imperfect though it may be.

The idea of accepting a restored/replaced engine is not a problem. The problem is when a small block is replaced with a big block but not treated like the trim tag due to the engine pad being TFP.

However, Roy just addressed that in the above post that they will brand it as counterfeit as well.

Also, I have no problem with the current rules as they are. That's not my point. I accept the rules and understand the difficulty in where to draw the lines. My point is that the inconsistency whether real or perceived is what confuses most people not intimately familiar with all the rules and were the cutoff for actual authentification of originality is. With most of the judging, originality is not a consideration, but only appearance or correctness or TFP. Or am I incorrect? In this area of Corvettes I am a novice. I first joined NCRS in 1992 but never got involved in judging or getting my cars judged. They just were not on that level. I have been around the cars a long time, but not the judging process so bear with me. That makes these threads important to someone like me. Especially since right now I am working on my 69, a first time Corvette resto of a car I've owned for 23years and attempting to make it as correct as possible. I am thankful the mods reopened this thread. The replies are helpful in getting an understanding not that these particular issues are a factor. However, I am not qualified to verify my engine stamp pad. I think its original, and I think my cars docs are real, but what if I have a restamp? My car could have been a small block (I highly doubt it but this is a issue I am sure owners go through on a regular basis) It must be devastating for an owner to find this out during a judging.

If a 69 for example, did not come with side exhaust but it was added and by all appearances is correct? From what I read in the JG, they would check several areas to make sure they best they can to see if it is correct. So, they are not checking originality but if they see it did not come with it, then I assume they lose points but the car does not get branded a fake? But a switched engine option is? So some things are valued higher than others.

The "general public" sees NCRS and Bloomington as THE verification judging authorities on Corvettes. Real or perceived, judging and originality authentication are the same in the publics eye? This affects price in the marketplace. Yes, NCRS has been around a long time and the rules reflect years of trial and error but any rules that have been made should not be written in stone as times and technology change and to keep the organization relevant they need to reflect that. Which they probably do. I am trying to learn as best I can (just for my own benefit and quality of resto) but it has some obvious confusion.

[Larry E.]

Re: 327 & 427 for Same Car 194377S117307

[QUOTE=Roy Sinor (2608);741093]
Cars that are detected to be horsepower altered are branded counterfeit. A restoration motor does not in and of itself mean the horsepower has been changed.
Just to play Devil's Advocate:
IMHO: If the above is true then well over 50% of the restoration motors of L36 and L68 engines should be branded counterfeit if the absolute truth was known. The majority of those blocks started out at 385 HP in Impalas. Yes I know the blocks are the same but the fact remains that Chevrolet rated them at 385 HP not 390 or 400HP. So technically the HP has changed. Lots of pro's and con's on this subject. I know that the following will never be permited with this club but: WOULD LIKE TO SEE A NON-BINDING REFERENDUM VOTED BY THE MEMBERS WHERE THE JUDGING SHOULD GO IN THE FUTURE. Results would be interesting. IMHO-Larry

[Michael W.]

Re: 327 & 427 for Same Car 194377S117307

I understood Roy's comment to mean the original horsepower rating of the car, not the engine. If your interpretation was true, all cars with replacement engines would be counterfeits other than those with engines from other Corvettes of the same year and same RPO.

[Edward C.]

Re: 327 & 427 for Same Car 194377S117307

[QUOTE=Larry Evoskis (16324);741125]

Cars that are detected to be horsepower altered are branded counterfeit. A restoration motor does not in and of itself mean the horsepower has been changed.
Just to play Devil's Advocate:
IMHO: If the above is true then well over 50% of the restoration motors of L36 and L68 engines should be branded counterfeit if the absolute truth was known. The majority of those blocks started out at 385 HP in Impalas. Yes I know the blocks are the same but the fact remains that Chevrolet rated them at 385 HP not 390 or 400HP. So technically the HP has changed. Lots of pro's and con's on this subject. I know that the following will never be permited with this club but: WOULD LIKE TO SEE A NON-BINDING REFERENDUM VOTED BY THE MEMBERS WHERE THE JUDGING SHOULD GO IN THE FUTURE. Results would be interesting. IMHO-Larry

CARS that are detected to be HP altered, not ENGINES. When the cars chosen original engine option is altered during the resto is the issue. I don't see a problem with using a Impala engine as a repacement as its the same but as you pointed out rated different by GM, but that's not the issue. The issue is changing a 350 L46 into a 427 L71.

[Ara G.]

Re: 327 & 427 for Same Car 194377S117307

The "general public" sees NCRS and Bloomington as THE verification judging authorities on Corvettes. Real or perceived, judging and originality authentication are the same in the publics eye? This affects price in the marketplace. Yes, NCRS has been around a long time and the rules reflect years of trial and error but any rules that have been made should not be written in stone as times and technology change and to keep the organization relevant they need to reflect that. Which they probably do. I am trying to learn as best I can (just for my own benefit and quality of resto) but it has some obvious confusion.

Ed, the Public contains millions of people with tremendously varying levels of knowledge, experience or familiarity with Vettes. We can't help what the uneducated (from a Corvette standpoint) thinks the NCRS or other big show awards mean. There isn't one of us in this organization that doesn't cringe when a guys asks him "how many 435 AC cars did they make in 67?" Oh boy, that's gonna hurt.....
It's not our job to "dumb" down our organization so it's easier for the uneducated (again, from a Corvette standpoint) to understand what we are about. They need to do their homework and figure it out on their own. Forget values, worth, etc of these cars. If you wanted to go get the "best" vette then you have to educate yourself on specifically what an NCRS TF means, or awards from the other show. Naivety will get you broke. If you were buying a beautiful home, and opted to NOT have an inspection on it - then shame on you if you find it has a bad roof a week later.

How our club is perceived by the public and what WE are actually all about are two different things. Just my two cents.....ARA

[Jim S.]

Re: 327 & 427 for Same Car 194377S117307

Ed, the Public contains millions of people with tremendously varying levels of knowledge, experience or familiarity with Vettes. We can't help what the uneducated (from a Corvette standpoint) thinks the NCRS or other big show awards mean. There isn't one of us in this organization that doesn't cringe when a guys asks him "how many 435 AC cars did they make in 67?" Oh boy, that's gonna hurt.....
It's not our job to "dumb" down our organization so it's easier for the uneducated (again, from a Corvette standpoint) to understand what we are about. They need to do their homework and figure it out on their own. Forget values, worth, etc of these cars. If you wanted to go get the "best" vette then you have to educate yourself on specifically what an NCRS TF means, or awards from the other show. Naivety will get you broke. If you were buying a beautiful home, and opted to NOT have an inspection on it - then shame on you if you find it has a bad roof a week later.

How our club is perceived by the public and what WE are actually all about are two different things. Just my two cents.....ARA

Good post, Ara!
To many people ask VERY important questions AFTER they have purchased a car. Remember what they say about filling the library before the garage.

[Edward C.]

Re: 327 & 427 for Same Car 194377S117307

Ed, the Public contains millions of people with tremendously varying levels of knowledge, experience or familiarity with Vettes. We can't help what the uneducated (from a Corvette standpoint) thinks the NCRS or other big show awards mean. There isn't one of us in this organization that doesn't cringe when a guys asks him "how many 435 AC cars did they make in 67?" Oh boy, that's gonna hurt.....
It's not our job to "dumb" down our organization so it's easier for the uneducated (again, from a Corvette standpoint) to understand what we are about. They need to do their homework and figure it out on their own. Forget values, worth, etc of these cars. If you wanted to go get the "best" vette then you have to educate yourself on specifically what an NCRS TF means, or awards from the other show. Naivety will get you broke. If you were buying a beautiful home, and opted to NOT have an inspection on it - then shame on you if you find it has a bad roof a week later.

How our club is perceived by the public and what WE are actually all about are two different things. Just my two cents.....ARA

I agree with you completely. That's sort of my point. However the confusion can even extend to its own memebrs, you even see it within this thread. I myself have learned more than I expected to after rejoining last year. This board has a vast library of knowledge that can be immediately accessed by searching. I've considered myself a Corvette guy. I thought I knew quite a bit about my own car. I look back now and I think I learned more about correctness this past year then I have in the last 30....no joke.

[William F.]

Re: 327 & 427 for Same Car 194377S117307

Stamp pads and trim tags two different deal entirely. If trim tag is missing ,judge will have no idea of how car came equipped from factory. If trim tag judged a fake, rest of car may be , probably is a put together counterfit and will be considered as such. Very reasonable.

[Edward C.]

Re: 327 & 427 for Same Car 194377S117307

Stamp pads and trim tags two different deal entirely. If trim tag is missing ,judge will have no idea of how car came equipped from factory. If trim tag judged a fake, rest of car may be , probably is a put together counterfit and will be considered as such. Very reasonable.

On the C3 the trim tag only shows color of exterior, interior and date assembled. It does not show what engine. It doesn't tell the judge anything about the mechanical configuration and to many people that determination is much more important than color. Is that more reasonable then fake side pipes? A car is a counterfeit because in 1971 when nobody cared about these a C3 gets blasted in the door, gets a new door jamb but no tag? A car is legit because it has the right tag but switched engine, trans, rear and just about every other numbered part? It's not so simple. To me I would think it comes down to is the car being misrepresented and on what level.

Also, to something Roy said about him not being aware of it being a felony to own a engine out of a car. I have seen this discussed before and looked up some state laws. I am not an attorney. I have looked up a few things on this and if you search google you may find that most states have some laws on the books as it relates numbered car parts, not just engines. The entire reason it was done was to prevent theft and the movement of stolen parts. It's just not enforced. Especially now with the restoration of so many cars. I don't know if its a felony, and for which states, but it is most likely some form of crime.

Some states require numbers to be put on the block for a replacement engine. As opposed to the opposite. You would think it would be illegal to restamp and engine. In some states its illegal not to. But the people that created these laws are not car people. They are lawmakers. They usually do not have the time or inclination to really do there research and then pass laws that have unintended results. They were interested in preventing crime related to theft years ago when they made these laws. Not counterfeiting originality. they did not predict that. So with that, if the law was enforced, the authorities would want to know how you came across that L88 block or whatever with a vin that does not match any car you own.

just a few:

South Carolina
Title 16- chapter 21-40. SECTION 16-21-40. Removing or falsifying identification number of vehicle or engine; buying, receiving or selling such vehicle or engine. (It also extends to other parts with even more conditions)

New Mexico.
66-3-507. Altered vehicle identification numbers; contraband.


A. Any person receiving, disposing of, offering to dispose of or having in the person's possession any vehicle, motor vehicle or motor vehicle engine or component shall make adequate inquiry and inspection to determine that no manufacturer's serial number, engine or component number or other distinguishing number or mark or identification mark or number placed under assignment of the division has been removed, defaced, covered, altered or destroyed.

Texas chapter 31 article 1617 says basically the same but tells how you can pay a fee and fill out some forms to be authorized to replace a engine/parts.

Most states are the same. It's legal gibberish but it exists. Just something to think about.

[Don H.]

Re: 327 & 427 for Same Car 194377S117307

On the C3 the trim tag only shows color of exterior, interior and date assembled. It does not show what engine. It doesn't tell the judge anything about the mechanical configuration and to many people that determination is much more important than color. Is that more reasonable then fake side pipes? A car is a counterfeit because in 1971 when nobody cared about these a C3 gets blasted in the door, gets a new door jamb but no tag? A car is legit because it has the right tag but switched engine, trans, rear and just about every other numbered part? It's not so simple. To me I would think it comes down to is the car being misrepresented and on what level.

Ed
the C2 Trim tag is basically the same, as you know.
IMG_2854.jpg

Build date, year style, body number, upholstery code and RPO exception control letter code, paint code. Nothing about mechanical configuration.

[Edward C.]

Re: 327 & 427 for Same Car 194377S117307

Ed
the C2 Trim tag is basically the same, as you know.

I didn't know that. Never owner one. I virtually know nothing about C2's other than what would be considered common knowledge. If I were to get one (of course I like them) I would no doubt pay someone to look it over (meaning a higher end C2) From what I've been reading there are many pitfalls. I will be getting the trim tag book on the mid years just because its good info. My focus has been on the 69 but its starting to spread out. The only thing I may have a grasp on is paperwork as some things translate over from what I've seen over the years playing with the C3. But even that is shaky if its not 68-72.