69 water pump dilemma

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  • Richard R.
    Very Frequent User
    • January 5, 2010
    • 262

    69 water pump dilemma

    This forum has been such great help with my project. I appreciate all the assistance you have provided. Now here is yet another one.

    Tearing down my 69 L46 engine as part of the frame off restoration. The water pump was working when the restore started, but I am going to have it rebuilt or replaced. The problem is the date of the pump. Markings on the pump are T GM 20 3782608 and B 14 7 which I presume from my research means it was for a 67 SB.

    I know the dates are not visible in judging, but is there anything else apparent that could be determined it is not a 1969 pump? If not, I will rebuild and reuse. if there is something that may stand out in judging I will try find a more correct unit.

    Thanks for your help.

    Rich
  • Joe L.
    Beyond Control Poster
    • February 1, 1988
    • 43129

    #2
    Re: 69 water pump dilemma

    Originally posted by Richard Roupe (51187)
    This forum has been such great help with my project. I appreciate all the assistance you have provided. Now here is yet another one.

    Tearing down my 69 L46 engine as part of the frame off restoration. The water pump was working when the restore started, but I am going to have it rebuilt or replaced. The problem is the date of the pump. Markings on the pump are T GM 20 3782608 and B 14 7 which I presume from my research means it was for a 67 SB.

    I know the dates are not visible in judging, but is there anything else apparent that could be determined it is not a 1969 pump? If not, I will rebuild and reuse. if there is something that may stand out in judging I will try find a more correct unit.

    Thanks for your help.

    Rich

    Rich------

    The GM casting #3782608 was used over a period of many years, from 1961 to 1970. It was used on a wide variety of Chevrolet small blocks over the 1961 to 1968 period and essentially just Corvettes from 1969-70. It was also cast at two foundries, Tonawanda, NY and Saginaw, MI. Inexplicably, the configuration of the castings of the same 3782608 pump differed somewhat depending upon where it was cast although the finished waterpumps are 100% interchangeable. The Tonawanda-cast pumps usually have the "T" casting mark which is, apparently, what yours has. In addition to the "T" casting mark, Tonawanda-cast pumps have 2 reinforcing ribs on the driver's side of the pump. Saginaw-cast pumps lack these ribs. Only Saginaw-cast pumps were ever originally installed on Corvette small blocks. So, if your pump is Tonawanda-cast, it is not original to your engine.

    The pump pictured below is a brand new 1969-cast, Saginaw '608' pump [not for sale]. In fact, it was cast the same day (May 16, 1969) and from the same pattern number (27) as the original 1969 pump (which I also still have and not for sale) on my original owner 1969 300/350.


    DSCN3088.jpgDSCN3089.jpgDSCN3090.jpgDSCN3091.jpg
    In Appreciation of John Hinckley

    Comment

    • Joe L.
      Beyond Control Poster
      • February 1, 1988
      • 43129

      #3
      Re: 69 water pump dilemma

      This is an example of a Tonawanda-cast '608' pump. Note the "T" casting mark and the reinforcing ribs. This style pump was NEVER originally used on a Corvette.


      GM#3782608tonawanda(b).JPG
      In Appreciation of John Hinckley

      Comment

      • Edward J.
        Extremely Frequent Poster
        • September 16, 2008
        • 6939

        #4
        Re: 69 water pump dilemma

        Rich, There are a few rebuilders that sell reman. water pumps in the Driveline. there are also many rebuildable cores to be brought on places like Ebay. I Picked up a water pump for my 63 at Chevy Cool. Your water pump may have some value to them as a core.
        New England chapter member, 63 Convert. 327/340- Chapter/Regional/national Top Flight, 72 coupe- chapter and regional Top Flight.

        Comment

        • Richard R.
          Very Frequent User
          • January 5, 2010
          • 262

          #5
          Re: 69 water pump dilemma

          Hi Joe,

          Interesting. my T pump does not have the ribs like your example. It looks more like the S pumps in your earlier picture, except for mine does have 4 holes, vs your S pump which has 8. Apparently the S pump had alternative uses as well.

          I talked to one person today who wanted $300 for a date correct pump. But no one can see the stampings once the pulleys are on. however I do notice your date stamp on the S pump may be visible given it's location.

          hmmm.

          photo 1.JPGphoto 2.JPGphoto 3.JPG

          Comment

          • Richard R.
            Very Frequent User
            • January 5, 2010
            • 262

            #6
            Re: 69 water pump dilemma

            Thanks Ed, I will check it out.

            Comment

            • Joe L.
              Beyond Control Poster
              • February 1, 1988
              • 43129

              #7
              Re: 69 water pump dilemma

              Originally posted by Richard Roupe (51187)
              Hi Joe,

              Interesting. my T pump does not have the ribs like your example. It looks more like the S pumps in your earlier picture, except for mine does have 4 holes, vs your S pump which has 8. Apparently the S pump had alternative uses as well.

              I talked to one person today who wanted $300 for a date correct pump. But no one can see the stampings once the pulleys are on. however I do notice your date stamp on the S pump may be visible given it's location.

              hmmm.

              [ATTACH=CONFIG]58789[/ATTACH][ATTACH=CONFIG]58790[/ATTACH][ATTACH=CONFIG]58791[/ATTACH]

              Richard------


              With the "T" casting mark, this is definitely a Tonawanda-cast pump. However, it's the first time I ever saw one without the ribs. I guess they must have used some patterns that didn't include the ribs. Perhaps these were transferred from Saginaw.

              The 4 hole or 8 hole hub pattern doesn't mean too much. In general, PRODUCTION pumps have the 4 hole pattern whereas SERVICE pumps have the 8 hole. However, there were exceptions and sometimes PRODUCTION pumps do have the 8 hole hubs. In fact, the pump that I pictured started life as a PRODUCTION pump but was removed from the engine prior to use. Commercial waterpump rebuilders often re-use the hubs.
              In Appreciation of John Hinckley

              Comment

              • Terry M.
                Beyond Control Poster
                • October 1, 1980
                • 15541

                #8
                Re: 69 water pump dilemma

                Originally posted by Joe Lucia (12484)
                Richard------


                With the "T" casting mark, this is definitely a Tonawanda-cast pump. However, it's the first time I ever saw one without the ribs. I guess they must have used some patterns that didn't include the ribs. Perhaps these were transferred from Saginaw.

                The 4 hole or 8 hole hub pattern doesn't mean too much. In general, PRODUCTION pumps have the 4 hole pattern whereas SERVICE pumps have the 8 hole. However, there were exceptions and sometimes PRODUCTION pumps do have the 8 hole hubs. In fact, the pump that I pictured started life as a PRODUCTION pump but was removed from the engine prior to use. Commercial waterpump rebuilders often re-use the hubs.
                FWIW: My original water pump (never been off the car) has an 8-hole hub. Of course, as you can see from my signature it is an S pump.
                Terry

                Comment

                • Richard M.
                  Super Moderator
                  • September 1, 1988
                  • 11242

                  #9
                  Re: 69 water pump dilemma

                  Gentlemen, Just a FYI and point of reference with respect to water pump rebuild kits available today. I thought I posted this here before but I guess I missed it.

                  Keep in mind that most rebuilt pumps today will likely NOT have a cast iron impeller as original, AND, because the reproduction kit bearing shafts are a SMALLER diameter, one cannot use the original impeller when replacing the bearing/shaft assembly.

                  Please see attached PDF.

                  Rich
                  Attached Files

                  Comment

                  • Richard R.
                    Very Frequent User
                    • January 5, 2010
                    • 262

                    #10
                    Re: 69 water pump dilemma

                    Thanks for the tip Ed.

                    Ron at Chevy Cool has come through with a reasonably priced correct S version and with the correct date code. I didn't realize though that there are rebuild kits for these pumps. I would have gone that route if the casting had been correct.

                    However it seems no one cares much about a pump with the T stamped on it. Even if it doesn't have the ribs like other S versions. I hate to toss it. Perhaps it might be worth something to someone in the next 100 years.

                    It continues to amaze me not only the depth of knowledge from this group, but also the level of detail that exists in something as simple as a water pump. Thanks to this group yet again, this dilemma is solved and I will now move on to the next problem.

                    Thanks again guys,

                    Rich

                    Comment

                    • Joe L.
                      Beyond Control Poster
                      • February 1, 1988
                      • 43129

                      #11
                      Re: 69 water pump dilemma

                      Originally posted by Richard Roupe (51187)
                      Thanks for the tip Ed.

                      Ron at Chevy Cool has come through with a reasonably priced correct S version and with the correct date code. I didn't realize though that there are rebuild kits for these pumps. I would have gone that route if the casting had been correct.

                      However it seems no one cares much about a pump with the T stamped on it. Even if it doesn't have the ribs like other S versions. I hate to toss it. Perhaps it might be worth something to someone in the next 100 years.

                      It continues to amaze me not only the depth of knowledge from this group, but also the level of detail that exists in something as simple as a water pump. Thanks to this group yet again, this dilemma is solved and I will now move on to the next problem.

                      Thanks again guys,

                      Rich

                      Rich-----


                      Tonawanda-cast waterpumps were used on many other Chevrolet models with small blocks. Folks restore those cars, too. Your pump casting has a good date for the era of what are now very restorable cars. You might want to ask Ron at ChevyCool or Bill Mock who can be contacted through the members list of this board as to what value you core might have.

                      By the way, those reinforcing ribs on Tonawanda-cast pumps were an EXCELLENT design feature. They really strengthen the pump casting in exactly the area of the pump that can break, especially when the pumps are being rebuilt. I don't know why the Saginaw-cast pumps deleted this feature. In my opinion, deleting the ribs was a dumb idea.
                      In Appreciation of John Hinckley

                      Comment

                      • Richard M.
                        Super Moderator
                        • September 1, 1988
                        • 11242

                        #12
                        Re: 69 water pump dilemma

                        Yes, those ribs are a good design feature when rebuilding. I inadvertently used the incorrect size socket tool when I was removing a bearing on this 608 pump not long ago. I was in a hurry and I chose the correct fractional size socket to press it out front to back. However, I chose one of my impact sockets. Those have a thicker wall size.

                        Embarrassed to say, when I gave the hydraulic press a final yank on the lever.............Bang!

                        WP1.jpg

                        Don't worry.......the JB Weld was a joke.

                        Rich

                        Comment

                        • Joe L.
                          Beyond Control Poster
                          • February 1, 1988
                          • 43129

                          #13
                          Re: 69 water pump dilemma

                          Originally posted by Richard Mozzetta (13499)
                          Yes, those ribs are a good design feature when rebuilding. I inadvertently used the incorrect size socket tool when I was removing a bearing on this 608 pump not long ago. I was in a hurry and I chose the correct fractional size socket to press it out front to back. However, I chose one of my impact sockets. Those have a thicker wall size.

                          Embarrassed to say, when I gave the hydraulic press a final yank on the lever.............Bang!

                          [ATTACH=CONFIG]58824[/ATTACH]

                          Don't worry.......the JB Weld was a joke.

                          Rich
                          Rich-----

                          Never press on these pumps when the pump is supported by the legs. I use a section of large diameter pipe which seats against the backing plate flange. I don't do this too often since I only rebuild pumps for myself. Most of those I'll NEVER, EVER use [none for sale, though]. However, when I find a really nice core, I just feel compelled to rebuild it. I can't resist.
                          In Appreciation of John Hinckley

                          Comment

                          • Richard M.
                            Super Moderator
                            • September 1, 1988
                            • 11242

                            #14
                            Re: 69 water pump dilemma

                            Originally posted by Joe Lucia (12484)
                            Rich-----

                            Never press on these pumps when the pump is supported by the legs. I use a section of large diameter pipe which seats against the backing plate flange. I don't do this too often since I only rebuild pumps for myself. Most of those I'll NEVER, EVER use [none for sale, though]. However, when I find a really nice core, I just feel compelled to rebuild it. I can't resist.
                            Yes I usually use 2 bars on edge on either side of the housing underneath. That time I didn't because I already had this pump apart earlier. When I re-used the original impeller, there was some pitting on the seal face and it didn't seal properly and it leaked.

                            When I went to remove the bearing again, I didn't use my bars because the bearing went in easily before. My problem was I used the wrong push socket. I was in a hurry. My mistake for sure. I've rebuilt many pumps in the past, but this one was doomed from the start.

                            The story got worse. I couldn't find another 608 core, so I ordered a rebuilt 608 from my supplier. It came like this.....from a rebuilder in California. Hmmm, you may know about this place. Goat Hill.

                            Here it was when I got it....Check out the paint job, and the rear cover bolts. It gets worse later.
                            PB050150.jpgPB050151.jpgPB050152.jpg

                            So I change the bolts, give a coat of Chevy orange, and install it on the car.
                            PB050155.jpgPB050156.jpgPB050158.jpgPB050159.jpgPB050160.jpgPB050166.jpg

                            After all of this work, I grabbed the fan and felt a bit of play in the bearing. I couldn't believe it. I run the engine and take it for a ride. A few minutes later, I hear the bearing squealing. Then the drips start coming from the weep hole below the bearing hub on to the ground.

                            I drove back, shut the engine, and called it a day. Sent that POS pump back to where it came from.

                            Next day, I got a rebuildable 608 core from a friend and rebuilt that one with a new kit I bought as a spare for the shelf. That's when I found I couldn't use the new bearing/shaft in the reproduction rebuild kit with original impellers and hubs. That rebuild doc I wrote above was that pump. After that rebuild, the pump was fine and has been working perfectly since.

                            Again, now the third pump in this car. Not counting the incorrect one on the engine when it first came to me.
                            PB060204.jpgPB060207.jpg

                            BTW, this car belongs to my friend and fellow member Frank Dreano. He was extremely patient with this......WP from He!!.

                            Rich

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